this post was submitted on 13 Oct 2024
78 points (96.4% liked)

Asklemmy

43851 readers
706 users here now

A loosely moderated place to ask open-ended questions

Search asklemmy πŸ”

If your post meets the following criteria, it's welcome here!

  1. Open-ended question
  2. Not offensive: at this point, we do not have the bandwidth to moderate overtly political discussions. Assume best intent and be excellent to each other.
  3. Not regarding using or support for Lemmy: context, see the list of support communities and tools for finding communities below
  4. Not ad nauseam inducing: please make sure it is a question that would be new to most members
  5. An actual topic of discussion

Looking for support?

Looking for a community?

~Icon~ ~by~ ~@Double_A@discuss.tchncs.de~

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
 

It's surprising that pagan religions of Europe have disappeared, but polytheistic religions of Asia (especially India) survived and are still widely followed there. Why?

all 24 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] glowing_hans@sopuli.xyz 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago)

tldr: Pagan Mongol tribes

I theorize: Nomadic mongol tribes (horsemen who used bow and arrow to hunt πŸ‡πŸΉ) converted quite quickly to the religion of the people they conquered. But the Mongols where mostly pagan shamanistic tribes in the beginning (they believed in the Sky god Tengri) and transferred some of their culture into ruling elites of their subject countries and killed many monotheistic farmers people greatly altering east asian and central asian demographics at a scale of 40.000.000 people πŸ’€. Also the Mongol conquests acted as a buffer that kept Islam or Orthodox Christianity spreading beyond central asia into east asia for 500 years:

  • Mongol tribes captured Moscow and beyond, preventing orthodox Christianity to expand to China faster
  • Mongol empire captured the Chinese capital Beijing. Maybe their shamanistic believes influenced locals.
  • Timurid (emperor Timur was grandson of Mongol Ghengis Khan) empire only expanded west not to China by their luck. They defeated mostly muslim empires like Persians and Ottomans. This prevented larger muslim expansion into east Asia. Even Europeans viewed the muslim timurids as a great threat, but also as a ally against Persian and Ottoman empires.
  • The siege of Baghdad in the year 1258 by the Mongol empire with Chinese siege-craft destroyed the Muslim "golden age" destroying a chance of their expansion to east asia

Additional theory: Shamanistic Mongol tribe invasions might have deeply altered the subconscious of the religious people they annexed in central Asia/Eastern russia and Persia, what is known that they replaced the ruling elites and subtly influenced hierarchy to make taxation easier.

[–] snack_pack_rodriguez@lemmy.ca 70 points 1 month ago (2 children)

It's because Christianity incorporated a lot of pagan rituals into Christianity and some pagan gods became catholic saints.

[–] InternetCitizen2@lemmy.world 48 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] JusticeForPorygon@lemmy.world 21 points 1 month ago

I was gonna say also because paganism was heresy and would get you tortured to death?

[–] Didros@beehaw.org 14 points 1 month ago

And then they started the murdering.

[–] eldavi@lemmy.ml 37 points 1 month ago

The crusades targeted all religions that weren't nicene christian and they were especially cruel if you were christian but not nicene.

Lookup the history behind the Dominican order if you want more gory details

[–] sun_is_ra@sh.itjust.works 35 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

Roman empire prosecuted Pagans in later eras in same way they prosecuted Christians in earlier eras. All countries in the Roman empire were dominantly Christian.

Asians were not part of Roman empire (neither did Arab for that matter) so they maintained paganism until eventually Islam eliminated from Arab region and so only Asia survived

[–] bamfic@lemmy.world 27 points 1 month ago (1 children)
[–] froh42@lemmy.world 4 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

No no, not the comfy chair!

[–] Teils13@lemmy.eco.br 22 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Besides the other reasons mentioned here, i think there is a strong factor in the social and intellectual sphere. Christianity was a cohesive standardized institution with a written holy book (or set of texts, before the council where they canonized which books would go to the bible), and later became a part of enforced state policy. That mixture of standardization and officialdom allowed it to essentially accumulate 'capital' to such a degree it could (after absorbing lots of ideas and practices) overwhelm the local polytheistic societies and religions.

Local polytheistic religions were extremely varied, and each village tribe or city had its own gods, beliefs, etc. The mess of beliefs meant that the religions spread organically, not in an institution with quasi industrial ways (standardized beliefs, practices, texts, even rows of clergy trained in the same ways on churches and monasteries). They could be challenged and be overwhelmed by the bigger faith, in intellectual ways (evangelization) or by demographic superiority. Or just by immigration to other regions (which many people did, like the barbarians in late Rome or Imperial legions and soldiers since always), where multiple contradictory faiths coexisted, until a cohesive unified alternative popularized.

All that is inverted in India. Hinduism was (is) varied, but way less than paganism from ireland to iran, and it is a formalized institution with written holy texts supported by the state (or by castes, specially the Brahmins), very constant and stable over many generations. That inertia even allowed it to not become muslim majority (except in a few regions).

Other countries in Asia actually have Buddhism as the main religion or state religion (or main historical religion). Even if buddhism absorbs lots of pagan deities, ideas and praxis, the core institution is solid and formalized, and dominant. Japanese Shinto is very different from pre buddhist times. China had buddhism, and confucianism and taoism as also very standardized formalized state institutions (aka not a different religion per village). So asian polytheism is very reduced compared to european one.

[–] AbouBenAdhem@lemmy.world 19 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago)

I think a major factor was the Hellenistic age (the spread of Greek culture from the Mediterranean to Central Asia after Alexander the Great) and the β€œinterpretatio graeca”—the practice of the Greeks (and later Romans) of merging their own polytheism with the various other forms of polytheism they encountered in the Hellenistic world. The result was that everyone from the Celts and Germans in western Europe to the Egyptians and Iranian polytheists in the Near East (but not the non-polytheistic Jews or Zoroastrians) could be assimilated into Greco-Roman culture without formally giving up their religions. But a side effect was that all religious institutions were assimilated into the state, so that when the state switched to monotheism there were no independent religious institutions to oppose it.

[–] blackbrook@mander.xyz 13 points 1 month ago

One factor is that paganism is tolerant of adding additional gods, practices, or beliefs to your mix. From a pagan standpoint, adding in Christianity wasn't a big deal, but Christianity was not similarly tolerant, they weren't cool with you keeping your pagan gods. Plus their belief system had the threat of eternal damnation and the promise of heaven to motivate you.

[–] Xiisadaddy@lemmygrad.ml 9 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Because christians literally forcibly converted everyone they could, and killed anyone who refused. Also it didnt die completely. Most people just worshipped in secret, and in some more rural areas it survived. Aswell as mixing with the christians culture and influencing them. Like Santa Claus is just Odin. A lot of Jesus's associations came from Apollo because Apollo was super popular in the roman empire and had lots of temples and when the romans converted them to churches a lot of the preists were like ok well im a preist of apollo thats what i know how to do so ill just keep doing what i always did but say jesus now instead. Laurel wreath on head, frankincense, etc. All Apollo things.

Most holidays trace their roots back pre-christian too. Christmas, Halloween, Easter, all can be traced back to old pagan traditions.

A big part of like christianity in general is converting others. Not all religions are like that most arent actually not even all christian sects are. Its why it spread so far cuz people who follow it actively try to spread it. Even today religious christian groups travel around the world trying to convert people. In areas they colonized they did the same, convert, or die tactics.

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 month ago* (last edited 1 month ago) (1 children)

Pagan remnants are attested in Poland as late as in XVI century for example. Also compare to christian persecution in Japan, even after over 200 years some secret pockets of christianity still remained and emerged when the antichristian edicts were liquidated during Meiji era. European pagans lasted 600+ but it wasn't enough.

[–] Xiisadaddy@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

The Sami people still exist and are pagan today in scandinavia.

[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 month ago (1 children)

Most Sami are either lutheran or orthodox. Their paganism still do exist in minority but it's because they live on absolute periphery of Europe and while they were never christianised by force by organised state action, even the private effort of Norwegian evangelists almost wiped it out in XVIII century.

[–] Xiisadaddy@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 1 month ago

Ya theyve been persecuted a lot as an ethnic minority too im just pointing out there are still pagan Samis around today

[–] tiefling@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 points 1 month ago

Christianity

[–] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 5 points 1 month ago

Within the Roman Empire, Christianity ended up succeeding as the apocalypse cult within the empire, with Rome eventually foresaking the old gods for Jesus.

As Roman retreated, Rome's church survived and became a unifying force in Europe. While there were crusades, there were also cases of willing conversion in order for border nations to gain access to the European market and diplomacy.