I'm assuming they're plain text. There's is no perceivable way they can only use those data points to to figure out which hash it is. Unless of course they're using their own "hashing" function which isn't secure at all since it's probably reversible.
this post was submitted on 11 Jul 2023
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Theoretically they could take those two characters + a salt and then also store that hash. So there it is technically a way to do it although it'd be incredibly redundant, just ask for the actual password at that point.
Please don’t do that. Brute force attacks are very easy on single characters, even two of them.
Yes, I did a reply about this above because this idea has been suggested a few times and it's truly a bad security move. I'd prefer they just encrypted it and made sure the key was stored separate from the database. That's more secure than this idea.
Perhaps they validate the passwords client side before hashing. The user could bypass the restrictions pretty easily by modifying the JavaScript of the website, but the password would not be transmitted un-hashed.
It is worth pointing out that nearly any password restriction like this can be made ineffective by the user anyway. Most people who are asked to put a special character in the password just add a ! to the end. I think length is still a good validation though and it runs into the same issue @randombullet@lemmy.world is asking about
How would they validate individual characters client side? The set password is on the server.
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I have never heard of anything secure doing that. Assuming they have taken security steps, it would mean they recorded those characters in plaintext when you set your password, but that means that at least those characters aren't secure, and a breach means some hacker has a great hint.
When the hashing occurs, it happens using the code you downloaded when you visit the site, so it's your computer that does the hash, and then just the hash is sent onwards, so they can't just pull the letters out of a properly secure password.
A secure company would use two-factor authentication to verify you above and beyond your password, anyway, since a compromised password somewhere else automatically compromises questions about your password.
A lot of banks in the UK do it. They normally have a secondary pin that they will ask for 2 or 3 characters of.
This means that if you log in and get keylogged/shoulder surfed etc they don't get the full pin. The next time you login you will get asked for different characters.
Not great, but not awful either - going away now that 2fa is more common
A secondary pin is a bit better but characters from the actual password (that you have to enter anyway) adds nothing to security from that kind of intrusion.
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I’ve noticed a few companies ask for specific characters of my password to prove who I am (eg enter the 2nd and 9th character)
They what?!
This is a huge red flag and should not even be possible for your primary password, if they are following basic security principles. Are you sure this isn't a secondary PIN or something like that?
NatWest in the Uk does it for both the password and the pin, has been since I signed up like 10 years ago. I assumed they do it so you don’t enter a full password that someone could access later. No idea how they work out but they are big and I assume if it was insecure they’d have had issues by now. I assume they store the letter groupings in advance.
I assume if it was insecure they’d have had issues by now.
At this point, it's okay to assume that they have had issues and they haven't disclosed them.
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I would assume they have the whole password in plain text, then. Not much you can do about it, just make sure you're not re-using any part of that password for other services. And if you are, then you should start changing them all to something unique, ideally with a password manager like Keepass or BitWarden. This is a good habit anyway, because you can never really know how companies are handling their IT security.
Crazy that that hasn’t become an issue for them yet! Thanks for the tips! I used to be pretty bad with my passwords but I’m reformed and using KeePass for everything these days.
One of the greats back on r/TalesFromTechSupport had a story about how his company (a telco, iirc) did the following with passwords:
- Discard everything after the 8th character.
- Replace everything that isn't a number or unaccented letter with the number 0.
- Store this "hash" in plaintext.
A user could have a password that they thought was "štr0ng&longsupermegapasswordofdoom" and be able to log in with it, but what was stored was "0tr0ng0l" and they would have been able to log in with something like "!tröng$lips" as well.ä
None of this was communicated to the customers.
Obviously, once in a while a customer would call support because they were sure they had made a mistake entering their password but were able to log in anyway. And tech support had strict instructions to gaslight those customers that they must have entered the password correctly and just thought they made a mistake.
Hot damn 🙈
Do they always ask for the same characters? I'd imagine they could hash the password as well as saving only the 2nd and 9th characters as plaintext. Still a bit of a security risk but not nearly as bad
Theoretically they could hash the the two characters with a salt and store it that way, but extremely unlikely they'd actually do that. And also fairly pointless. But still technically possible.
I wrote a comment about this in this thread. Just to add that a salt doesn't add complexity to the brute forcing of a password, it just makes it so you need to brute-force each one separately.
Hashing pairs of characters would be extremely insecure.
It's always 2 characters, but I can't remember if it is the same ones every time
Good question. A lot of banks in Europe use this type of setup, where it will ask you for 3-4 characters of your pin/password, both to login and to confirm transactions. I always thought it was weird but never thought about the security implications.
I do have this with my bank as well, but I have always had to enter a full username and different password before it asks for those
One of the main differences between hashing and encrypting is that encryption is réversible by some means, while hashing isn't. The irreversibility is what makes it so ideal for storing a password in a way that definitely can't be used to get the original password back, even if someone steals the whole database with the passwords in it.
Those companies that ask for specific characters might be encrypting the passwords, but they definitely aren't hashing them.
I always figured they checked the plaintext locally before hashing and sending it to their server, but I don't really know.
This is it.
It seems a lot of people have trouble distinguishing between what's simply happening in their browser, and what's being sent back to the server. I mean, I get it; it's confusing, even to the people creating the tech, let alone a casual netizen. It's a good question, and you can't fault anyone for wondering what's what.
Yes, asking these questions is a fantastic thing.
Speaking of questions - I imagine there is a day to use the built in dev tools in the browser to verify that the particular site does this, but I don't know how. Do you happen to know how I might?
I remember signing up for a site a few years ago and they emailed me my confirmation, with my password, in plaintext. I was absolutely shocked
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They could hash pairs of characters on password creation and store those. Seems like more data points to guess the original password, but maybe the math is hard enough it doesn't do much.
If it's uniquely salted (and especially if they use a secret pepper too) it might not help with guessing the password, because now you have to crack several hashes of long random sequences of bytes instead of just one.
I'm finding it hard to see how it would be more secure. If I understand what the other comment meant, they would have something like:
password123 = ef92b778bafe771e89245b89ecbc08a44a4e166c06659911881f383d4473e94f
We'll assume they pick 4 random pairs
3rd + 5th (sw) = 7865b7e6b9d241d744d330eec3b3a0fe4f9d36af75d96291638504680f805bfd
9th + 11th (13) = 3fdba35f04dc8c462986c992bcf875546257113072a909c162f7e470e581e278
2nd + 5th (aw) = f5fe88ee08735ae259265495a93c8de2b0eacfecf0cd90b5821479be3199fa8c
6th + 8th (od) = 32f30ea0e83c41a331c4330213005568675f7542c25f354ebb634db78cc30d12
Assuming all 128 7bit character options are used and ignoring dictionary or optimized attacks the complexity of the full password is 7x11 or 77 bits (or 151,115,727,451,828,646,838,272 combinations). So with just the password hash that's how many tries you need to exhaust every possible option, again without optimizing the process.
But for each of the pairs the complexity is 14 bits or 16,384 combinations. So it would take microseconds to crack all 4 of the pairs. With that information you'd get a password of ?as?wo?d1?3?????? (because we don't know the length) and if they have used a common word or series of words you might have enough information to guess the rest, but even when brute forcing you've removed a decent amount of complexity.
Note: This is SHA256. We're going to ignore salt for this. Salt only increases complexity because you need to crack each user's password and not able to really use rainbow tables etc.
Unless I misunderstood the idea. In which case, sorry about that.
In all likelihood it is encrypted in a database and the interface to the phone operator only allows them to enter what is said and confirm (although I wouldn't be surprised of some showing the whole password).
You may be right. I was thinking that the strings would be padded with a random pepper and a unique salt though, before hashing. So the string "sw" might become "swrP86#UlRA64%KGjBICfyO!6" with the unique salt and then "awrP86#UlRA64%KGjBICfyO!6L6ZCf3#T##ssUPjfOMXL^YGZ" with pepper added before hashing, while the string "od" might become "odjaSmh&1$n1##1#400AjQE10kXL6ZCf3#T##ssUPjfOMXL^YGZ" (salt shown in italics). Then you'd be trying to crack these long strings rather than just two-character strings. Of course, if someone steals the DB they would have the unique salt, which would reduce the difficulty to that of guessing two characters plus the pepper (assuming the pepper is stored securely elsewhere), but that's still quite difficult.
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There's a security exchange thread on it here
It looks like there are certain kinds of algorithms you can run that give you this property.
Also, I've seen this when you have an alternate form of authentication like a password you type in full, or an existing session token. In those scenarios, you could probably use some sort of symmetric key encryption to encrypt the secondary password with the primary password / session token in such a way that you aren't storing the key and can't decrypt it, but that you can check specific digits on command.
Full-stack dev here, not necessarily in answer to OP’s question, but in my experience it is a pretty standard practice that when you log in to a service, the web page sends your unhashed creds to the server, where your password is then hashed and compared to the stored hash. Via HTTPS/TLS/SSL, this is a reasonably secure practice since the creds are still encrypted while in transport. Hashing is a computationally expensive process that (before the advent of WASM) wasn’t really feasible to do on the client side.
What is WASM ?
Web Assembly. Pretty neat tech if you read up on it.
The most secure way this could happen is them storing the specific character separately. It reduces security of your password if that plaintext character is compromised but you could still store the rest of the password securely.
You could even salt and hash the one character with a large salt to keep it behind a one-way function, and then the agent would need to enter it and confirm via the system, but that would reduce any downside of the one or two characters being compromised.
It's weird either way though.
I’ve only seen this as a second factor after entering a full password. Although it has mostly been replaced by actual 2FA now. Last time I remember this type was on the uk gov student finance website
The 2 occasions I can think of, it was characters from my main password. Both were during contact with the Support teams. I no longer have service with either of the companies (due to unrelated reasons)
Did you have to give those characters directly to the support staff?
On one occasion, yes, over the phone.
The other I was in a web chat on the company's website and they provided a link to a page on the same website where it asked for the characters
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The way I’ve seen this done before, it was not for a password, but for a token entered after the password was entered. No, the token is not encrypted, and therefore it would not be secure for the service to use it as a password.
This is typically used for a secondary authentication factor in most instances, such as a service ID number after you've already provided a username, and entered at the same time as a password.
It is not possible for them to securely be storing the password yet being able to retrieve individual characters at the same time.
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