Zionism is based upon the myth that everyone hates Jews and that Jews can’t live among other people. I am awfully summarizing what I heard an antizionist rabbi say.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

Regardless of whether it is true or false that Jews are a target of hatred, it would not be antisemitic to think that they are. In other words, believing antisemitism exists is not antisemitic. (Personally, I believe antisemitism is absolutely real, but being anti-Israel is not antisemitism. For instance, the KKK excluded jews.)

I also think it's not antisemitic to think that Jews would benefit from a homeland of their own, despite the fact that antisemites helped create Israel. That's not the same as believing Jews cannot live among other people.

[–] PanArab@lemm.ee 9 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Whatever it may be, it should have never been made our problem and should have never been right in the middle of the Arab World. But there is a Christian Evangelical and European Colonial aspect to Zionism.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Well yeah, but now you're saying something very different from what you were saying before. And I agree, Israel was a mistake. Unfortunately it's a problem that's hard to fix now.

[–] PanArab@lemm.ee 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

No it isn’t. The Frankish invaders were expelled after 200 years. The French in Algeria were expelled after 100 years. Similar problems have already been solved twice before.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I would not say that is an easy solution. And I do not think people should be expelled from the place where they were born.

[–] PanArab@lemm.ee 4 points 3 days ago (1 children)

With how racist and supremacist Israelis are, they will probably leave on their own terms like the Boers did after the end of apartheid in South Africa. The idea of coexistence and normalization has been killed many times over thanks to the genocide. I used to advocate for it, now I don’t, I personally want them gone from the region.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I don't think I can agree with "I personally want them gone from the region" in any context unfortunately. Maybe some day I'll be disillusioned.

[–] PanArab@lemm.ee 3 points 2 days ago (1 children)

They aren’t violently occupying yours and genociding your people . It is easy to be generous and forgiving with someone else’s.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 days ago

Well yeah that is true.

[–] Gorgritch_umie_killa@aussie.zone 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

it should have never been made our problem

The cleaves between the faiths have exsisted there for thousands of years. Israel is a new power, but the participatory Abrahamic religions are not. Nor are most of the peoples there. Its best to remember European Jewish weren't the only peoples to build up Israel.

I think you've gone too far with your comment.

[–] PanArab@lemm.ee 0 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago) (1 children)

Moroccan, Indian, Iranian, Syrian, Yemeni, Ethiopian and Iraqi Jews are still settlers and not indigenous to Palestine. They are invaders, you give them a part of your country and leave us out of it.

[–] Gorgritch_umie_killa@aussie.zone 1 points 2 days ago

So no Jewish peoples lived there before the State of Israel you reckon?... hmm

Leaving the above aside, because its a dead end for both of us. The removal of any peoples, just like Israel is trying to do to the Palestinians now, won't lead to a peaceful future.

Take it from a person whose a product of colonisations, invasions, and genocides. The marks aren't erased by moving the opposing people on. History is always remembered, something Israel is going to learn the hard way.

The only options for the future are a form of historical pragmatism, or a continuing series of violent crimes against each other, with the turns of history favouring one population with more strength over the other at different times.

[–] Bloomcole@lemm.ee 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

It creates hate for jews by hiding behind them and speaking in their name.
It is not a hot take.
You will probably find the following equally true statement even hotter: zionism is fascism.
Have some fun: https://zionism.wtf/

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

I find "zionism is fascism" pretty sensible. Hot in the public eye, perhaps, but not such a hot take for me personally.

But your same argument goes:

White supremacy is racist against white people (because it speaks in their name)
Nazism are racist against so-called Aryans (because it speaks in their name)
Male chauvinism is sexist against men (after all, it doesn't represent all men)
Pro-choice is anti-feminist; after all, it misrepresents what pro-life women find moral.

I actually do agree insofar as there is a second-order effect that causes harm for some jews -- the Star of David is less popular than ever, now! What a shame Israel appropriated it for its flag! -- but I just can't bring myself to agree with the basic premise here. If your movement elevates one type of person over another, you can't be said to be against that type of person, even if you're scoring own-goals. In that case, you're just failing despite your intentions.

[–] Bloomcole@lemm.ee 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I said nor implied any of those things.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago

Yes I know. They are absurd sentiments. I'm observing that the same rationale behind "zionism is antisemitic" would also support those absurd ideas.

[–] Cocopanda@futurology.today 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Will it matter to someone who lost most of their family? If not all of them? My family went through a genocide and I know how that anger can fester and grow into unhealthy behaviors. I’ve forgiven the monsters that murdered my family. But I doubt many people can really achieve this. As I took radical steps to see through the hate.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Well... yeah I mean I do actually think people can see past that. I know of holocaust survivors who later became friends with not just germans but even people who were active nazis. If you're saying the cycle of violence can never end then we don't really need that kind of negativity around here IMO.

[–] Cocopanda@futurology.today 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I’m just saying no matter what. Without pure peace. There will always be radicalized individuals that come out of these genocides. Sure a few of us can forgive. But that’s not the norm.

Both sides have to give up fighting. Put down the guns and treat one another like brothers and sisters. Until that happens. It will be an endless conflict.

[–] jsomae@lemmy.ml 1 points 3 days ago

I suspect that non-radicality is actually the norm, because who can really be bothered. But all it takes is a vocal minority of radicalized people to keep the fire burning, and to flip non-radicals.