this post was submitted on 15 Jun 2023
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Lemmy.World Announcements
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Wait, what? Beehaw is defederated? I still see lots of post from Beehaw on my feed.
The mods announced it today. Thereβs a giant pinned thread on Beehaw about it.
I tried making posts here on my Beehaw account and I could see them while logged into Beehaw but not when logged into Lemmy.world. Some of my older posts were no longer visible outside of my Beehaw account. Also some of my posts had comments from Beehaw people vanish all at once. My older posts from the Beehaw account are still visible, so I think some posts/comments remain visible if they happened before defederation.
Iβm not sure which levers the mods there are pulling because the effects do seem inconsistent, and the mods seem in a bit of a frenzy trying to figure it out themselves.
Federation is a two-way connection. Beehaw shut off the incoming stream, essentially, so anyone commenting or posting on spaces from that instance will not be seen by users logged into Beehaw. However, the outgoing stream is still active so anything posted there that you subscribe to or visit from another instance can still be seen. Users on other instances can even comment in those threads, but users on Beehaw would not see those comments.
For me it helps to think of the instance you are logged into as the place you trust the most. Content from other sources can always come in, but you can choose to simply not see things you don't want. This is a fundamental part of how the Fediverse works, for better or worse.
That's interesting. What happens if a lemmy user replies to a beehaw user's comment from a lemmy instance? Does the beehaw user just never see it?
Yeah, but small correction: Beehaw only defederated from two specific instances of Lemmy, not the entire system. If you were engaging with a Beehaw community from lemmy.one or other instances that Beehaw is still federated with, everyone sees everything on both sides.
Also, if the Beehaw user really wanted to engage with the lemmy.world or other defederated instances, nothing is stopping them form creating an account on that instance (or any other instance federated with the desired community) and commenting or posting from there.
The user need to be conscient of that. Otherwise its really unfair. If he doesn't know the server he choose did that, he will be restrain without being aware of this.
And in an other hand, if I have to check why someone don't respond to me (example), to be sure where this someone is, is federated, that would be really painful and discouraging. That can lead to a lot of misunderstood too.
Cooool, I was wondering this. I had been curious if it was 1 party or 2 party federation; so someone can defederate, but it doesn't "block" receipt of content, only the interaction with the blocked platform?
I believe that instances can independently choose whether to accept incoming or allow outgoing data, so there are multiple possible combinations.
Makes sense! Thanks!
There is a post explaining the details here: https://lemmy.world/post/149743
Ok I took a minute to read some of it. Itβs just confusing to me, how is Beehaw defederating from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works for whatever reason is not like exactly like what Reddit is doing to third party apps? You want to federate with us? Sure, but you have to play by OUR rules. Thatβs not how it should work.
Defederating in this situation means (to my very limited understanding). Users on lemmy.world can see posts from beehaw.org, they also can interact with the posts/comments. Those interactions just don't show up on beehaw.org, so that they don't have to moderate as much.
Reddit charging a metric ton of cash for their api is more or less if you would have to pay (the creator of lemmy) for each user if you decide to create your own instance (lemmy.world, beehaw.org and whatnot).
I think defederation works both ways, the posts you can see from lemmy.world are old copies, not being updated anymore.
You might be right, but I understand it so that beehive is still providing the true to everyone, just lemmy.world users can't interact with the true version they will get an out of sync version with only their comments. But lurking should be still possible. Basically similar to a silent ban. You can still post but (almost) nobody can see it. (almost means only lemmy.world users)
Since it is out of sync .world users and sh.itjust.works users can also not interact on beehive posts since they both have their own out of sync copy.
I guess sh.itjust.doesntwork
You will see posts but you won't be able to interact with any one outside of lemmy.world users. They can't keep up with the number of users and have defederated from a huge number of instances.
My experience is that itβs more nuclear than that. On my Beehaw account I tried to post to a Lemmy.world community and it seemed to post, but when I logged into my Lemmy.world account that post wasnβt visible.
It appears a full severance.
I believe beehaw only degenerated from lemmy. If youβre on kbin you can still see both.
Only from lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works, not with others AFAIK. The anouncementpost can be found here https://beehaw.org/post/567170
Lol every time I read an announcement by these guys it feels off-putting. I thought I was a progressive but reading this and the comments makes me feel like I am the furthest thing from progressive if this is what they believe. Every time they mention a safe space, I wonder if they are trying to make safe spaces seem like a joke because that's the vibe I'm getting. Safe spaces are for victims, not for trying to create a great wall of beehaw "ideals."
I really don't see it in such a negative way. Being able to control what you allow and don't allow seems like the whole idea of a federated system in my perspective, including defederation with other instances.
Everything is also new to everybody and these are also just some volumteers sharing their servers and bandwidth to host a place for people to chill. Finding a way to moderate the huge influx of people sounds like a challenge and I can see why they would make this choice (and I believe it's temporary for now as well). I see Beehaw currently more like a phpbb forum that has it's own thing. So far I'm liking the different communities beehaw, lemmy.world and kbin bring, each in their own way.
I guess I'm frustrated with the communities that decided to chose beehaw really, some of the big subs announced they would now be moderating a replacement community on beehaw. It makes me want to shake them and ask why the fuck did they pick beehaw. If beehaw wants to become a great firewall, whatever it only makes me never want an account on there because I want to choose which instances to interact with, not the admins. But now I would have to find new communities to replace the ones taken away by beehaw admins. Any communities I have created can't be interacted by beehaw users and I can't interact with any communities on beehaw. I've already read a comment about a person from beehaw who now can't continue to mod a community on lemmy.world. The nuke action was not appropriate imo. The beehaw admins also refuse to delegate, they only want 4 people to comb through every single post and comment. This is insane for 4 people to do.
I also don't see this as a temporary measure, they want the lemmy devs to implement the exact mod tools they want otherwise they won't unblock my instance. I find that unlikely to happen any time soon, if ever, due to how open source projects work. Might as well as have told everyone it is permanent and they don't care instead of giving a bs reason. Why would I bother making an account on a different server at this point when that server can easily be the next one beehaw blocks? At what point does beehaw decide to just defederate because they can't handle interacting with other instances? I have taken the news very poorly and have nothing but disdain for the admins there.
I thought beehaw didn't allow their users to create communities.
Looks like I made a leap there that was incorrect, I was looking at a list of migrated subs and assumed the mods were migrating with it. Sorry about that. Well another reason not to use beehaw, control freaks that don't let you open your own community.
lemmy.world, kbin and Twitter have been my new dopamine rotation routine atm.
Has Shoshon The Elegant vibes
This is amazing, thank you for sharing this.
This is honestly interesting to watch play out, because one of the neat things about federation is that it allows for effectively chains and knots of information - Beehaw is more censored/curated at the moment while Kbin is more connected than anything because itβs bridging Lemmy World and Beehaw.
So pardon my ignorance but if youβre on lemmy and beehaw defederated, you wouldnβt be able to see any beehaw content, right?
Iβm genuinely still trying to figure it all out still.,
Any new content. We can still see and interact with the posts that were created and copied from when beehaw was federated with lemmy.world. Once they defederated, their server simply stopped interacted with lemmy.world.
Any posts you see from beehaw are just copies. You can still comment and vote, but the changes are only kept on lemmy.world's instance.
Since lemmy.world is still allowing federation with beehaw, lemmy.world users can still see posts and comments from beehaw users, if those beehaw users were to post to the lemmy.world instance directly. The beehaw users wouldn't see any interactions or replies, however.
It's a street with a lane blocked off right now. Lemmy.world allows traffic from beehaw, but beehaw blocked traffic from lemmy.world. We can hear them and see them, but they can't hear or see us.
That ending got a scary movie vibe. Doesn't de-federating kind of take your community out from knowing what's happening around the neighborhood?
I think from the perspective of beehaw, it's more relieving rather than spooky. There's nothing stopping someone from hopping over here to lemmy.world to make an account. It's just that comments and posts from here don't get copied over to beehaw, so it makes it less work to curate and moderate what's showing up for beehaw-specific accounts.
I think so, but I;m not sure. Could also be the other way around. I'm still new to this as well.
Exactly. Am no longer using my lemmy.world account. I made a kbin one first, before I realised that Jerboa didn't support it. So now I have three accounts.
Boom. I just installed jerboa a few minutes ago and am replying to you with it now.
I do like how it kinda/sorta looks like how I had Boost setup before.
If you want to see or interact with Kbin using Jerboa, you should be able to do that via your lemmy.world account as long as you have the same subscriptions set up in both instances.
Yes, I had that set up. I do get the Kbin magazines. But I wanted to sill access the beehaw posts. The FMHY instance is working for me.
Instructions were unclear I have like 5 new accounts and I'm forgetting where lol.
If you had created an account on a provider that wasn't lemmy.world or sh.itjust.works you'd had access to everything but with just one account.
Even if you disagree with beehaw, it's not a bad idea since it spreads the load of users across instances.
I moved over here because it was quick, and Iβm fast losing interest in Beehaw given the current trajectory.
Not quite any other instance, quite a few that they have blocked in total, you can see the full list towards the bottom of https://beehaw.org/instances
Those are just your average blocked mastodon instances.
Yeah people are still not understanding what happened. They also plan to refederate. I don't blame them for blocking the flow until they can prevent unsavory content from making it on their instance. People have a right to control content hosted on their instance. If I ran an instance I wouldn't want NSFW or political posts, anything that's gonna cause drama as that is what I hated about reddit. There are plenty of instances where all that is allowed.
Same, moved to kbin.
Yooo kbin user!
I hedged my bets and created accounts on both Lemmy.world and kbin.social just in case one of them crashed completely or defederated from something I followed. I find the whole federation thing super interesting though, Iβve always worked IRL on different types of systems installation/integration so I think my brain is just naturally drawn to novel ways of doing stuff.