There are no ethical choices under first-past-the-post voting. We must instead make a decision that reduces the most harm.
this post was submitted on 05 May 2024
478 points (100.0% liked)
196
16481 readers
2216 users here now
Be sure to follow the rule before you head out.
Rule: You must post before you leave.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
I'm thinking about the people who could lose their lives and families because there is something that can be done about that.
I'm not sure voting will do anything about that
We have a full-blown fascist party and a right-wing liberal party that has shown itself willing to capitulate in every way to said party
Directly or indirectly, Project 2025 is coming, it seems
The United States needs to cease to exist before it's too late
We need to change the United States into a socialist country with unimpeded majority rule before it is too late. Our only chance to do that is by delaying the fascist takeover for another four years. The United States becoming a christo-fascist dictatorship would be disastrous for everyone not just the US. Authoritarian dictatorships would start carving up the world into spheres of influence. Millions of people would die from dictators enacting genocide and ethnic cleansing in their spheres of influence.
I don't think that voting for the same two parties is going to change that. Those two parties got us into this; they aren't going to get us out.
The Democrats are not going to get us out of this, but we need time to convince people that socialism is the answer to our economic problems. We are going to have to elect socialist politicians. We need our democracy, as flawed as it is, in order to do that.
You might be interested in reading Socialism: Utopian and Scientific by Engels. Ideas take hold in a population based on their material conditions, not by "convincing them." This was tried numerous times in the past, all of them abject failures.
Yes, convincing people that Socialism is good is a good thing to do, but that isn't going to be what makes or breaks the movement.
This is certainly a defensible position, yes. I'm just not so sure we're going to avoid the christo-fascist dictatorship with the Democrats. They forever capitulate to our christo-fascist party, and they themselves are authoritarian at heart. Just look at the White House and its support for genocide, border fascism, subjugation of protestors, defending of an inequitable hierarchical economic system that relies on forced labor, and those are just the first examples that come to mind
I think the Democrats are not a great political party. I'm registered independent. They are the only mainstream political party for pursuing progressive change that we have at the moment. We have to take our chances with the Democrats because it's the clearest path to a better future that we have.
We do need to adopt socialist policies as a country in addition to that though. If we stick with neoliberalism then we are going to keep having this problem. The fascist movement will inevitably grow as the wealth disparity gets worse in the US. People are going to be looking for solutions to their problems, but neoliberalism inherently denies them the tools to fix the systemic issues they face. Neoliberals cling to civility politics and value property over justice for people to name a few. Fascism will provide them with easy, but incorrect, solutions in the form of out-groups to hate. The answer to our problems is socialism, but we need time to convince people.
I know it's a long shot, because people are effectively conditioned from living in a neoliberal society to reject socialism without any evidence. But we have to try. The only way this gets better is convincing people that socialist ideas have merit while neoliberal and fascist ideas do not. People's lives depend on nations developing and maintaining inclusive political and economic institutions. We are going to need to have this ideological reckoning at some point, so we might as well have it sooner rather than later.
Trying and then failing presents the same consequences as not trying. So we might as well do it now.
This sounds like you want to implement social changes within the existing system. This is the lie of progressives and radlibs. It will never work. We need to dissolve the United States of America. There is nothing here worth salvaging, save the people.
No, I want to radically change the system. Doing that of course involves using the system. We need to move from liberal democracy to social democracy. And our democracy must be fixed to have majority rule. It can work, but nothing is guaranteed. This is no different than how a revolution can succeed, but has no guaranteed outcome. As long as we have a democracy we might as well use it.
Dissolving the US will result in the death of hundreds of millions of people. People have to eat. When societies collapse, their populations tank with them, because the people lose the state centralization they are dependent on to get basic necessities.
There is no saving the people without inclusive political and economic institutions. If we value people then we must fix the systems they depend on to live.
Social democracy is a farce. That's exactly what I mean. It's a fairy tale told by progressives and radlibs
Sounds like you desperately need to read some theory. This is some liberal shit
Edit: I see in your comment history you calling yourself a "progressive." You're lying now and saying leftist. I think you're completely untrustworthy.
It's a political ideology with a set of ideas and policies. Social democracies have existed in Nordic countries for decades. How they have done is debatable, but they do exist.
I recommend Why Nations Fail. It's been really good so far, but I'm still only half way through. So far, they seem to have missed that capitalism is inherently extractive and thus always at odds with an inclusive political institution like democracy. Private corporations are inherently incentivized by profit margins to undermine democracy. To remove regulations, oversight, taxes, etc. This is the contradiction of liberal democracy that social democracy solves. By adopting socialism, so the workers own the companies they work for, workers are included in both the nation's political and economic intuitions. Since only the worker class exists, there is no one being incentivized to undermine the people's institutions.
I hope neoliberals like Biden starts saying stuff like that, that would be awesome.
This book and the things you're describing here may be left of, say, typical neoliberalism in that it entertains some thoughts about the perpetual threat of revolution, but ultimately it is yet another propaganda piece published in a desperate attempt to maintain the chains of capitalist society. Of course, some leftist theories don't even seek change through revolution, opting instead for more of a community-style approach, which is why you see groups like the Zaptistas. No leftist theory of which I'm aware seeks change (at least, not the bulk of its change) through the existing system. This would be absurd in that it is true that there will always be inequities inherent to capitalism. Take the most socially democratic state in the world, and they're still relying on wage inequities, forced labor, and worse.
Here are some personal suggestions, as a starting point:
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/carlo-cafiero-karl-marx-s-capital
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-the-conquest-of-bread
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-anarchy-works
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/petr-kropotkin-mutual-aid-a-factor-of-evolution
There are four I'd personally recommend.
There are non-monetized youtube channels with free audiobook versions of all of these books, if you prefer audio.
I appreciate the recommendations.
Theory is great, but we have to apply the theory to our real lives as best we can. As I said, how effective existing social democracies have been is debatable, but they are a working model of some, but not all, of the ideas and policies. Grassroot movements seek to radically change the system using the system. That's the modern progressive experiment. The only way to find out if it works is to do it. Like anything else I believe success is possible, but not guaranteed.
"working" model in that they're working as intended-- by churning profits out of an inherently inequitable system.
Sounds like you might be a neoliberal tbh
What I don't understand is your fixation with claiming that people aren't what they claim to be. I've seen it in this comment section. You did it with another anarchist. I am a social democrat. I don't know any neoliberals who would say any of the things that I believe in and tell people about.
You've said many times that you're an anarchist on lemmy. I don't see why you would lie about that. But I really don't get why you engage in this discourse this way. You are by no means the only person who does this by the way. So, it's been nagging at me. I go around telling people about my socialist political views in my day to day life when politics comes up.
You are an anarchist in real life right? You tell people something to the effect of "I'm an anarchist and I think we should live in some form of stateless society" when discussions of politics come up. Your political views as an anarchist are not some internet persona you adopt for fun right? This isn't some kind of fictional fan wiki page you like to maintain? You actually want to live in a state of anarchy IRL? I am genuinely asking, this is not a rhetorical line of reasoning.
If social democracy is to out there for you to see working in real life, I can't image you wanting to be an anarchist. We don't have a way to make a true stateless society work at the scale of 8.1 billion people. It would be cool if we did. I think it's possible. I just don't know how to make that work yet. Hopefully someone actually figures it out one day.
We have concrete ideas and policies to purse with social democracy so that is why I purse creating that system. If I had a better system to pursue I would do so. I believe social democracy is not the end all be all of political and economic inventions. Just a strict improvement over liberal democracy.
I think the worlds nations adopting social democracy is not detrimental to anarchism. If anything, I think it would broaden people's horizons to the possibility of some kind of stateless society. So I don't see why an anarchist would be against social democracy. It's probably not an anarchist's ideal society, but I don't see why it would necessarily be something to oppose. There is a progression to any technology. Political and economic ideas are no different. We have to crawl before we can walk.
Inclusive political and economic intuitions like democracy and socialism are about people deciding how to run things for themselves. We use representation in democracy to make it scale, not because we want some absolute authority to dictate to use how to live our lives. We want leaders not rulers. We want freedom so we create and maintain systems that include the people who live in them so we can all make decisions about our own lives. But the systems have to work for the hundreds of millions or even billions of people who live with those systems. The answer to our current societal problems cannot be, let almost everyone die, so the survivors can live under a more ideal system that scales to their smaller population. People matter. edit: typo
That's no anarchist
Okay, I don't follow. But please answer my question. It wasn't rhetorical. If me just asking you this bugs you so much, so you wouldn't answer the first time I asked, I don't get why it would be a go to option for you to say to other people. Is this just gatekeeping then?
No it's literally them espousing pro-state liberal propaganda while calling themselves anarchist
Thats not me gatekeeping, that's just them lying
Social Democracy isn't Socialism, it's Capitalism with safety nets. Workers do not own the Means of Production in Nordic Countries.
I believe reading Leftist theory would do a lot for you.
It is is a form of socialism. The fact it has a market economy does not mean it is capitalism.
I didn't say they did. Like most countries they have a mixed economy. No one has yet abandoned capitalism entirely. The fact they haven't adopted every socialist position does not mean they aren't socialist. I am saying social democracies need to adopt that policy. Workers owning corporations as apposed to share holders is not incompatible with social democracy, but a logical inclusion.
You know this stuff isn't just theory right? It has practical applications in real life too.
If the libs could read, they'd be furious with you right now 😂
I do get a lot of liberal anger sent right to my inbox
Sure wish they'd direct some of that rage toward the people who are killing us and our planet, but I suppose I'm an easier target lol
It's not just about president, but also cabinet positions. And Bidens cabinet is pretty decent. Trumps cabinet is awful
Which members of his cabinet are trying to cease funding of Israel and how?
Which ones are actively opposing border fascism?
Which ones want to defund the racist police?
Which ones want to replace the inherently destructive economic system?
Which members of his cabinet believe housing is a basic human right?
Which support the immediate release of all those wrongly incarcerated for unjust reasons such as drugs?
Which support the immediate cessation of our reliance on slave labor?
Which support the removal of the barriers to communists and anarchists becoming citizens?
There is nothing salvagable about the United States. When you say Biden's cabinet is "pretty decent," you're doing so from a position of blind privilege. They may be good for certain demographics, but even though I'm living paycheck to paycheck, I'm still in the upper crust of this awful system. I've not seen one "pretty decent" person in Washington. The closest would be, say, people like Ilhan Omar, AOC, and Sanders, but even they are moderately right-wing and ultimately support a system that will forever oppress marginalized groups until it is forcibly removed.
Bruh there are a multitude of issues that the cabinet handles. As much as what's happening in Palestine is abhorrent, there are in fact other important things happening everywhere all the time. If you look at only one single issue, then you are blind to a great many things. And if you neglect the fact that one side would also handle that particular issue with even more bloodlust, then you're just not a serious person.
This is downplaying a genocide, and it's really cold and gross to refer to a fucking genocide as "one single issue"
Pretty easy not to fund a genocide, eh? Just ... do fucking nothing, and you've succeeded
You liberals love to act like it's such a high bar to clear to just not commit atrocities, and it's absolutely appalling
Not to mention that I listed a whole slew of atrocities Democrats are complicit in, and those are just off the top of my kinda tired brain. "One single issue" my ass
You can either choose to give a little support to the better part of our awful system in our awful world
Or you can stay in your fantasy land where the 2 parties are absolutely identical and your Itty bitty push back is more effective
Oh my mistake, the party that capitulates unceasingly to the christo-fascist party and in some cases even extends their fascist policies (more immigrants deported under Biden than under Trump, etc.) is absolutely so much different than the christo-fascist party itself! We should be very grateful for all they've done for us
I'll be sure to save this for when my trans ass is thrown in a gulag by trump and I can show the immigrants in there with me that you thought everything would be same either way.
I'll be sure to let you know when Biden deports my gay immigrant husband
Got a secret for you: The Democrats would run us over with a tank if it were politically convenient. You think a party that's ok with child murder will protect our marginalized asses? Think again.
And the fascists would do it gleefully, likely finding additional ways to incorporate cruelty and torture. Anti-electoralism is statistically indistinguishable from supporting the fascists or accelerationism. Accelerationism has no hard data showing that it actually works, only that it increases suffering.
Good thing I'm not suggesting accelerationism then
pLeAsE vOtE fOr 99% FaScIsM tO sAvE uS fRoM 100% fAsCiSm :(
Biden doesn't give 2 shits about trans rights...
You genuinely think the old-ass catholic man cares (outside of expanding your future military drafts)?