There are no ethical choices under first-past-the-post voting. We must instead make a decision that reduces the most harm.
this post was submitted on 05 May 2024
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The Democrats are not going to get us out of this, but we need time to convince people that socialism is the answer to our economic problems. We are going to have to elect socialist politicians. We need our democracy, as flawed as it is, in order to do that.
You might be interested in reading Socialism: Utopian and Scientific by Engels. Ideas take hold in a population based on their material conditions, not by "convincing them." This was tried numerous times in the past, all of them abject failures.
Yes, convincing people that Socialism is good is a good thing to do, but that isn't going to be what makes or breaks the movement.
In the US, people are attempting grass roots movements to enact progressive change. To do this we need as many people to vote as possible for the most progressive candidates available to correct for the overrepresentation of Republicans. To get more people to vote for progressives we have to convince them that progressive and socialist ideas have merit.
Convincing people is essential to the modern progressive movement. This is because living under neoliberalism inherently conditions people to reject systemic change to political and economic systems and thus by extension they are conditioned to reject socialism. If you've ever talked to people in person about socialism you've undoubtedly heard the phrase "socialism doesn't work" without any supporting evidence or maybe a reference to the Soviet Union collapsing.
This is what socialist theory gets wrong. A person's material conditions do not suddenly make them a socialist or any other ideologue. Ideas have to be internalized and adopted one at a time by a person. All a person's material conditions do is make a person look for answers to their problems. On their own, a person attempts to solve their problems with the tools they've been given by the system they live under. In the case of the US, that system is neoliberalism. They work three jobs, work overtime, work themselves sick even. I've heard people quoted as saying something along the lines of, "I did everything I was supposed to." As in they played by what they thought were the rules of capitalism and don't realize that the extraction of their wealth is the goal of the system.
Fascists understand this need to educate people. They rush to exploit desperate people who are losing everything under capitalism. They present them with their ideas, primarily that some out-group is the source of their problems. They blast the airwaves with propaganda to brainwash people by trapping them in information silos. They get out the vote to advance fascists causes. This is how the fascist movement, that has existed since the 30's in America, has been growing in America since Regan.
Neoliberalism makes people desperate enough that they will try anything, especially fascism when presented with it. It's easy for people to think other people dying is the answer to their problems. When in fact our future depends on us adopting better economic and political ideas. Also, neoliberalism tends to obsess over civility politics and a strict adherence to law and order. Thus even people who aren't fascists themselves don't balk at the totalitarian and/or authoritarian nature of the fascist regime they end up in. They either won't notice the difference or if they do assume it was a natural correction to what our society is 'supposed to be'. While living in a neoliberal society, people end up thinking that either the systems they live under can't be changed or even that they shouldn't be changed. Rather than convincing people to change the system, the fascists convince people to remove other people. Thus they bypass people's acquired resistance to societal change. No where in this, do people naturally internalize and adopt socialist ideas. People who believe in progressive and socialist ideas have to get these ideas in front of people's eyes so that they have a chance to mull them over.
We need to reach out to people by taking advantage of the Internet 2.0, social media, which is not something that was available in the 20th century. We need to convince people that fascism is a self-destructive ideology. That neoliberalism, in a vacuum, inevitably leads to fascism because of the societal and material conditions it imposes. People double down on what they know and make a more extreme and worse version of it, instead of radically changing it. And that socialism is the answer to people's economic problems.
-Electoralism is nice, but has historically been extremely ineffective. This is because the parties in power will be the ones that can best raise funds from the people with the most money.
-Yes, I have spoken with many people about Socialism, I am familiar.
-See, this is exactly why you need to read theory. No, Socialism does not say that people magically gain Socialist ideas based on their material conditions, but that they are susceptible to them. That's why the US has a vast amount of reactionaries, the US is an Imperialist state super-exploiting the third world for super-profits, creating a labor aristocracy.
Please, read theory. You are clearly well-intentioned, but you don't actually understand societal mechanics and thus have a Utopian mindset. You're again confidently incorrect.
Democracy is the best political system that we have and it has been the most effective system we've ever had. Populist grassroot movements have fundamentally challenged the notion that only political parties can raise money. Trump is going to end up raising a ton of money because of he made Truth Social public. His supporters are going to end up driving up the stock price like Wallstreetbets did with GameStop stock.
This is what I'm saying the flaw in the theory is. It's the reverse of what we would want. Neoliberalism makes people susceptible to fascism and resistant to socialism. That's why people have this knee jerk reaction to socialism and are sleep walking into fascism. We have to actively correct for this before the fascists complete their takeover.
Also, I like reading theory. But I want to apply what I learn to my life.
What form of Democracy? In what metric is it the most effective? The US isn't particularly democratic, but absolutely helps the ruling class.
Please explain why it is a "flaw" in Socialist theory, and not just something you dislike. Neoliberalism does not make people susceptible to fascism, crumbling Capitalism does that. People have a knee-jerk reaction to Socialism in the US because they are a part of the Labor Aristocracy, a status that would not change even if the US became a Social Democracy.
I understand that you like to read theory, I am just curious why you are intent on rejecting all of it in favor of your personal vibes. Have you read any Anarchist or Marxist theory, or just liberal theory?
The kinds that exist currently. Compared to all other forms of governments that exist currently. Yes US democracy is flawed. Yes, the owner class benefits immensely from our current liberal democracies.
You said it yourself, you have also experienced people saying "socialism doesn't work". There is a reason for that and it's not that people are more susceptible to socialist ideas. I don't like that reality either, but it is reality as we have observed it. It directly contradicts socialist theory. If socialist theory was correct people would respond with "tell me more" when they hear socialism.
People have a knee-jerk reaction to socialism because they know it involves systemic change and wealth redistribution. As part of living in neoliberalism, people are told they are living at the end of history. That change comes in incremental steps and our institutions are fundamentally good and just need good people in charge of them. If anyone is struggling, it's an issue of personal responsibility. And that wealth redistribution is theft. That they would be denied having wealth and the little wealth that they have would be taken from them. When in fact capitalism is inherently about wealth extraction. We would all be making more if owned the companies we worked for instead of them being privately owned or owned by share holders.
To Republican evangelicals who don't know better, Trump is that good man who is going to make a supposedly good system work for them. They think if he can just be allowed 'to do what has to be done' removing the people who make up the out-groups they've been told to hate, things will get better for them. This is of course a fascist lie. We have to work to correct this.
I've read the Communist Manifesto and Zimmerman. I have not read the Anarchist and Marxist theory that you are referring to. I think I've read some stuff on the anarchist library before though. I know enough about political science, history, and current events to have informed opinions on current political and economic issues. Gatekeeping is counterproductive. edit: typo
No, what form of Democracy, and by what metrics? Why do you say bourgeois dictatorships are better?
Again, no. You are entirely missing the point. People will not be swayed by learning Socialism is better, without material conditions matching said ideas.
Listen, I know you're trying your best, but only reading the Manifesto, a pamphlet to energize the workers, does not make you equipped to discissing if Marxism is outdated or not. I'm not even gatekeeping, you are making numerous false assumptions about Marxism that I have tried to point out.
Specifically, you are falling for the well-studied failures of Utopian Socialists like the Owenites, described in Socialism: Utopian and Scientific.
Again review the countries that exist. Google maps exists. Also call them what they are, liberal democracies, thank you. People fought hard for those democracies.
No, these martial conditions, under neoliberalism, despite matching the material conditions of a worker class oppressed by an owner class, make it harder to learn that Socialism is better. This is why it's hard to even engage people about Socialism. This is the specific part of Marxist theory we are disagreeing about by the way, not Marxist theory in general. Neoliberalism makes it much harder for us to engage people with socialist ideas. Where as people are primed for fascist ideas. This is the problem we face that exists in the modern day. It started with Thacher in 1979 in the UK and Regan in 1980 in the US so as interesting as the Owenites are, they are not relevant.
These statements contradict each other. It's not for you to decide what makes someone qualified to discuss anything. To be clear, I do not have to have read all the theory you have to discuss this topic.
There are many types of democracy. Representative, direct, parlimentary, and so forth. Even as liberal democracies, these were erected in revolutions led by the bourgeoisie alongside the Proletariat against the Aristocracy, and as such serve the Bourgeosie and suppress the Proletariat. You haven't indicated which of these you support, or why they are better.
As for your disagreements with Marxism, by your own admission you have only read the Manifesto, which is an inflammatory pamphlet for workers. Under what pretense could you hope to discuss something you haven't investigated? What is there for us to discuss if we have one person who understands Marxist theory, and someone who rejects it without having read it?
I absolutely agree with you in saying that you do not need to have read theory to have opinions. What I have been trying to say is that you need to read theory to have opinions on said theory. You are rejecting Marxism without knowledge of it, which makes discussion difficult and incomplete, especially because you have been against my clarifications on the topic.
No, I am making a point about one part of Marxist theory that is well known. For all your obfuscation and gatekeeping you have not refuted this point.
Marx said that material conditions like the ones we see in the modern day under neoliberalism would inspire the people to a socialist revolution. The material conditions have not done that. Neoliberalism did not exist when Marx wrote his theories. He could have only guessed the ways in which neoliberalism would condition people to reject the tools of their own liberation. Wealth redistribution is essential to correct the wealth disparity between the top 1% and the bottom 99% of people. But most people would have you know that is, to paraphrase, 'an immoral infringement of property rights'. People think they would be losing wealth when of course they would be the ones gaining that wealth. There are people, usually conservatives, who think that their should be an economic hierarchy. And that a person's place on that hierarchy is justified by the circular reasoning that they are on that place in the hierarchy. This idea is incompatible with wealth redistribution and must be full internalized as an incorrect idea by as many people as possible. Then people need learn that wealth redistribution is an essential part of maintaining a functioning economy.
No, Marx did not say that "material conditions would inspire the people to Socialist revolution." That cuts the entirety of Dialectical Materialism out of the equation.
I cannot stress this enough, you are misconstruing Marx's arguments here.
Marx said that Matter creates ideas. This is the underlying concept of Materialism. However, Marx was not simply a Materialist, but a Dialectical Materialist. You have eliminated the Dialectic from Marxian analysis and additionally added a supernatural element to Materialism in one fell swoop!
The Dialectic is a way of looking at the progression of Matter. What once was seen as a snapshot becomes more valuable when analyzed in motion. Even if people became aware of Socialism individually, the Mode of Production dictates the overarching ideology of society, and the types of ideas that take hold.
The US is additionally not simply Capitalism in decline, but an Imperialist state super-exploiting the third world for domestic super profits. This creates a Labor Aristocracy, a class of Proletarians that are reactionary because their standard of living is inflated by global Capitalism. THAT is why the US is not revolutionary. The Third World will be revolutionary before the US as it shakes off the yokes of Imperialism, a fact we can see in real life.
Neoliberalism isn't something Marx did not predict. He didn't predict the name, but he absolutely predicted the process and ideology. Imperialism was elaborated on by Lenin, but Marxism still allowed for that analysis to be made in line with Marxism.
If you take nothing from this conversation except for this, please listen to the following statements:
You are deeply misinformed on what Marxism is and isn't, and as such none of your points on Marxism hold any water. I can offer recommendations for reading, if you wish, but if nothing else I ask that you refrain from continuing to confidently misrepresent Marxism, as that only adds confusion.
I implore you to address you argument at my argument. Your reliance on directing your argument at me is not effective. I am not the subject of debate. Nor is over complicating a simple issue.
I am not adding a supernatural element. Just that the essential claim is that people will rise up against their oppressors. And specifically that this uprising would be economic in nature and that it would achieve socialist ends. This has happened throughout history. There have been socialist revolutions. I am arguing the people are not going to rise up in a socialist revolution on their own in modern day America. Neoliberalism is actively working against that outcome while at the same time allowing fascism to take root. People who know pro-democracy and socialist ideas have to spread them and fast. The ideas will not spread themselves. Neoliberalism leads to fascism. To achieve a different outcome is to work against people's natural inclination to internalize their societies flaws as values and then implement those values into worse systems. People work with the tools they have been given. We have to give them better tools. Then they can have those tools implemented via democracy.
We are not discussing imperialism. The hundreds of millions of civilians in America aren't oppressing anyone. The US governments actions in the rest of the world are not relevant to the specific topic of Americans forming a political revolution or any revolution at home. The domestic policy is what is relevant. US military spending of course decreases available funding to social programs, but the specific actions of the military are not relevant to this discussion. While wealth was introduced to America via imperialism the boom and bust cycle of capitalism is inevitably extracting that wealth from the working class. The conditions are there but we see a populist christo-fascist movement instead of a socialist movement.
Again ad hominem. Refuting this line of reasoning is trivial.
Your argument is introducing confusion where there need not be any.
I am addressing you at your argument.
You did indeed add a supernatural element, you claimed that Marx claimed Material Conditions force ideas, when that isn't true nor his argument. Base and superstructure, after all.
We are discussing Imperialism, to ignore Imperialism is to ignore Marxism. The United States super-exploits the third world for super-profits domestically, which does inflate lifestyles. No, the average American is not knowingly choosing this, but this is the inevitable endpoint of Capitalism as the Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall causes developed corporations to seek higher and higher profits from greater and greater exploitation. Neoliberalism is a side effect of Imperialism.
Yes, the American proletariat is oppressed by the American Bourgeoisie, but the American Proletariat is also the benefactor of American Imperialism and as such is largely reactionary. This is why fascism is rising, not Neoliberalism, not the ideas of Reagan and Thatcher but the Material Conditions caused by Capitalism shifting towards Imperialism.
It is not Ad Hominem to point out over and over that you misrepresented Marx and Marxism. I showed you where and why you misrepresented Marx and you call it Ad Hominem.
If you do not wish to engage with Marxism that's fine, but don't try to pretend you understand it enough to discredit it, that's all I ask. You don't have to take reading recommendations from me, you can find them elsewhere and decide for yourself if they contradict your current understanding.
No, not force, naturally lead to. It is logical for the oppressed to want to overthrow their oppressor.
I'm ignoring both of those things because they are not relevant to the discussion. Only the specifics of the flaw in Marxism we are discussing and domestic policy implications of imperialism are relevant. Your argument is effectively trying to justify the veracity of the Bible with Bible verses. Your argument is self referencing. I addressed the rest of this paragraph in the other comment chain, except the last line.
Neoliberalism is a political invention. You'll notice the UK adopted it as well, a year earlier than the US. Even though the UK's actual empire had collapsed at that point. Imperialism had nothing to do with it. Conservatives needed a new ideology to combat progressives movements that were taking hold in those countries. So they came up with neoliberalism.
This is the part I addressed in the other comment chain again, but here you go. Any benefit they experience is quickly extracted from them. The owner class always wins in the end. The boom and bust cycle is the gradual extraction of wealth. With each bust more American families lose the ability to participate meaningfully in the economy. Where as the owner class is always there to benefit from the next boom.
This is an ad hominem attack in a nut shell. Your argument is directed at me. The veracity of my argument doesn't depend on me.
Ad hominem. Again. What I am doing to refute your argument is trivial. Anyone can do this. I highly recommend you try a different approach.
I'll take recommendations, but Marxist and anarchist theory in general is not relevant to this discussion.