this post was submitted on 22 Dec 2023
268 points (97.9% liked)

World News

32315 readers
1039 users here now

News from around the world!

Rules:

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] u_tamtam@programming.dev 1 points 10 months ago (7 children)

You obviously fall into the trap of believing that hard science cares about politics, and that money thrown at problems as part of national strategic planning magically solves them. But for anyone else legitimately interested in understanding the topic better and having a glimpse at its complexity, those are great resources:

If the above is too advanced, this can serve as a good primer and answers "how the heck did we get there": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt9NEnWmyMo

Also, I never wrote that China will never get to EUV (or eventually something beyond that), just that it will take a very long time, because the complexity is spread across several very distinct scientific disciplines, integrating them is a challenge of its own (again, watch the videos), and packaging this into a system that meets the scale and reliability requirements to make it commercially viable hasn't been reproduced to date.

[–] Tankiedesantski@hexbear.net 23 points 10 months ago (13 children)

EUV is complex, unlike nuclear weapons and energy, 5G, space stations, probes to the dark side of the moon and hypersonic missiles. Those things are simple.

smuglord

load more comments (13 replies)
[–] DefinitelyNotAPhone@hexbear.net 17 points 10 months ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

and packaging this into a system that meets the scale and reliability requirements to make it commercially viable hasn't been reproduced to date

Your overall point about EUV being difficult isn't wrong, but this line is really where the typical liberal forecasting of China's capabilities fall apart: they don't give a shit about it being commercially viable, they give a shit about having the industrial capacity.

The reason why EUV is more or less a cartel monopoly in the West is that it's a cobbled together collection of scientific principles that work well enough that the first few companies that figured it out could make insane profits off of it, and then proceeded to patent the shit out of it to prevent anyone else from doing so. The engineering behind EUV is... not great from a reliability standpoint, most notably the fact that EUV has an average downtime of something like 10% (meaning your fabs are offline 10% of the year for maintenance), in large part because you're shooting little droplets of liquid metals with a high intensity laser which tends to splatter and require cleanup. There are potential alternatives to this process for creating the kind of UV light you need for lithography, such as particle accelerators, that are theoretically superior but the R&D into those alternatives costs tens of billions of dollars with no guarantees that any of it will ever become profitable, so Western capital doesn't bother trying.

China doesn't have that profit restriction. It needs the ability to produce bleeding edge chips to remove its reliance on an increasingly hostile West, and it has not only the engineering and scientific power to brute force that kind of R&D but the ability to devote a sizeable portion of its national resources to doing so. It doesn't matter if its profitable, it matters if they're able to decouple a critical industry from the West and ignore sanctions accordingly, and that has infinitely more value than a shareholder dividend, so they will put the resources into doing so and, inevitably, they will figure it out. And from what we've seen over the past 2 years since the trade wars have started, they're not only succeeding but doing so ahead of expectations, in large part because increasing tensions have made life a living hell for Chinese scientists and engineers abroad working in these industries due to racism and suspicions of spying which push them to emigrate back to China and lend their expertise there instead.

In 20 years, chips made in mainland China will be competitive or even superior to their Western counterparts unless the West undoes 50 years of neoliberal rot overnight and replicates what the CPC is doing for silicon manufacturing or the CPC collapses and China experiences the same shock doctrine that the former Soviet states did in the 90s, and neither of those outcomes look likely right now.

[–] mranachi@aussie.zone 13 points 10 months ago

Making the light is a relativity easy step, it's mirrors that are hard af.

But China will develop euv tech and beyond, and I hope they will do it in a new way and advance human knowledge.

And I hope this nationalistic freakshow will just melt away, as it's a ball and chain on humanity.

[–] u_tamtam@programming.dev 4 points 10 months ago

Hey, thanks for the constructive comment :)

[China] don’t give a shit about it being commercially viable, they give a shit about having the industrial capacity.

True, but I don't think the end-goal is to "just" achieve technical sovereignty. Answering local demand requires production at a large scale

The reason why EUV is more or less a cartel monopoly in the West is that it’s a cobbled together collection of scientific principles that work well enough that the first few companies that figured it out could make insane profits off of it

I really wouldn't put it that way, if you check my 3rd link out, you'd see that there were a few competing technologies on the table, and the topic was researched by national labs and a lot of public funding as well. Japan was also a leader and significant contributor but ultimately failed. It's not nearly as clearly cut as "bad imperialistic USA locks it down for rest of us": there is real international competition, and real international cooperation.

I can't predict where we will be at in 20 years. No matter what, we will be many generations beyond EUV. Other approaches that were deemed unfeasible before (=today) might turn practical in the future as fundamental research advances, and I suspect China will be strong in those areas, and, as you said, perhaps a leader.

[–] ProfessorOwl_PhD@hexbear.net 15 points 10 months ago (1 children)

just that it will take a very long time, because the complexity is spread across several very distinct scientific disciplines, integrating them is a challenge of its own (again, watch the videos),

Dutch managed it, why wouldn't the chinese, with a centrally planned economy that can directly integrate the different disciplines, be able to?

packaging this into a system that meets the scale and reliability requirements to make it commercially viable hasn't been reproduced to date.

Communists in shambles - how could anyone fund science for the sake of progress instead of making money?

[–] u_tamtam@programming.dev 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Dutch managed it, why wouldn’t the chinese, with a centrally planned economy that can directly integrate the different disciplines, be able to?

  • Dutch didn't, not alone, far from that. Have a stab at the first link I posted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmgkV83OhHA

  • This will also show a long list of "honorable mentions" who failed, including the Japanese attempts (which, as you should know, aren't exactly new to the game, way ahead of China and largely self-reliant in the matter, unlike China whose semiconductors industry has been centered around import of foreign tech)

  • I didn't write that they "wouldn't be able to", I merely pointed the actual reasons why this is extremely hard (perhaps the hardest current Engineering feat, or why I find this whole thing fascinating), with speculations that this will take a while

for the sake of progress instead of making money?

no need to stretch it: if China wants to meet the ever growing domestic demand (either military or civil), China need fabs churning chips reliably. Simple as that.

[–] ProfessorOwl_PhD@hexbear.net 9 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Dutch didn't, not alone, far from that.

As opposed to the chinese, who are completely alone, all 1.whatever billion of them.

which are[...]largely self-reliant in the matter

You just fucking said it required cooperation you dumb cum juggler, now you're saying they failed despite not cooperating?

I didn't write that they "wouldn't be able to"

I cannot sufficiently describe how much I hate your stupid reddit tier "um, akshumally I didn't use those exact words therefore you're completely misrepresenting what I said!" You won't shut up about how hard and difficult and borderline impossible it is and you want me to believe you're not trying to say they won't be able to? You're certainly not arguing that they will.

if China wants to meet the ever growing domestic demand (either military or civil), China need fabs churning chips reliably.

That's not what commercially viable mean, buddy.

[–] u_tamtam@programming.dev 1 points 10 months ago

Dutch didn’t, not alone, far from that.

As opposed to the chinese, who are completely alone, all 1.whatever billion of them.

no need to speculate, China is not at the same level today (or we wouldn't even be having this discussion in the first place), no matter how populous. Would it help catch-up? Probably! You are the one bringing this up, not me, so…

You just fucking said it required cooperation you dumb cum juggler, now you’re saying they failed despite not cooperating?

Was this a difficult sentence to read? Should I break it down for you? Those two things can be true at the same time (which is essentially what I wrote):

Today's China has neither.

You won’t shut up about how hard and difficult and borderline impossible it is and you want me to believe you’re not trying to say they won’t be able to? You’re certainly not arguing that they will.

Well, I'm sorry that a well-sourced post with actual engineering and historical facts, meant for the legitimately curious and interested people here makes you so angry. What can I say other than "you probably didn't check-out the links and are arguing in bad faith/for the sake of it" and "you are letting your emotions blur your comprehension, i.e. putting words in my mouth".

That’s not what commercially viable mean, buddy.

Commercial viability is the likelihood that a product or service will be successful in the marketplace.

Unless the CCP starts distributing indigenous chips asking nothing in exchange, which I find unlikely to say the least, those will be traded (against hard money, work, resources, …) on some form of market. I'm not really into arguing about semantics, so you do you.

[–] 420blazeit69@hexbear.net 12 points 10 months ago (7 children)

You obviously fall into the trap of believing that hard science cares about politics

Look in the fucking mirror champ

You're trying to tell me a rapidly developing, well-resourced country will hit some arbitrary technology threshold because communism. You know, the political system that put the first man in space a generation after most of the USSR wasn't even literate.

load more comments (7 replies)
[–] duderium@hexbear.net 12 points 10 months ago (1 children)

You definitely know you’re winning when you’re constantly complaining about your opponent. You hate communists yet allow them to live in your brain rent-free. Interesting.

[–] moujikman@hexbear.net 8 points 10 months ago (1 children)

China doesn't need to produce the fast chips because their comparative advantage is in quantity manufacturing.

[–] u_tamtam@programming.dev 3 points 10 months ago (1 children)

Sure thing, until you realize that China isn't that big at all as the 5th largest producer of semiconductors behind Taiwan, Korea, Japan and the USA:

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/semiconductor-manufacturing-by-country

[–] carl_marks_1312@hexbear.net 3 points 10 months ago

Top 5 Countries That Produce the Most Semiconductors: Taiwan South Korea Japan United States China

China is listed as the largest and 5th largest in your source

[–] Krause@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 10 months ago (1 children)

that's cool and all but china has carrier-killer hypersonic missiles and ameriKKKa doesn't

[–] u_tamtam@programming.dev 2 points 10 months ago (1 children)

And what does that have to do with advanced lithography? I'm not some military expert and I doubt you are either so why waste your time spreading your unsubstantiated beliefs?

[–] JuryNullification@hexbear.net 7 points 10 months ago

Those beliefs are very well substantiated. Fuck, you could even find this shit on Wikipedia. Look for “DF-21” and then look at the news articles about the American tests blowing up.