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this post was submitted on 06 Dec 2023
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Insomnia, anxiety
Derived from chamomile flowers (and other plant sources), I've found this to be more successful in treating my chronic insomnia than any of the pharmaceutical options. (And believe me, I've tried them all.)
Was curious about this since Andrew Huberman mentioned it
It's really safe even in absolutely large doses. (There are studies performed using doses in the multiple GRAM range.) I highly recommend trying it. Personally I take 400mg/night, which is twice the dosage you'll see advertised. I only mention because I think the standard advertised range is probably too low for people like me.
Thanks! Is it expensive? How much do you get?
Oh man, you are really challenging my senior citizen brain here. I think I know how to bold things haha
I like Nootropics Depot as a source company. They sell it for $20 for a 30 count bottle of 200mg capsules.
Is that the dose, 1/night before bed?
Yep, that's the usual recommended dose - 200mg like an hour before bedtime
Would you recommend it for other seniors particularly? My grandmother might like something like this? She liked Calm Magnesium Sleep except for the GI effect of magnesium citrate and I wonder it this might be easier on the system to the extent she'd be into it
I actually WOULD recommend this for seniors. It does not have any anticholinergic side effects like a lot of pharmaceutical sedatives do, and it doesn't interact with the most common blood pressure or cardiac meds that older folks often take.
I have the same problem with magnesium supplements. Mag glycinate has less of that laxative effect than mag citrate, so she could try that as well.
The only two caveats I would add are: she should definitely tell her doctors she's taking it, as with any OTC supplement. And if she's specifically on a drug called warfarin (Coumadin), she should be very cautious. (Even Tylenol can cause warfarin to build up in the body. Warfarin sucks, so we don't use it as much anymore, but it's not unheard of.)
Hope that helps! (I'm a cardiac nurse. I work with older folks a lot.)
Thanks, I'm in talks with the right expert hehe :)
More specifically, is it genuinely helpful for quality of sleep, all other things being constructive towards that end in turn?
Hahaha, I love working with older folks. They're my favorite patients.
Re:Apigenin -> sleep quality?
Literally the only thing that gives me refreshing sleep. (See also: mitochondrial dysfunction that I mentioned in my other comment about CQ10.) Apigenin seems to improve what's called "sleep architecture" in a way that none of the pharmaceuticals I've ever tried do.
Shit, I may have to try it first. Im getting other sleep stuff done but every bit helps
Here, I found a good article for you:
https://www.uspharmacist.com/article/assisting-seniors-with-insomnia-a-comprehensive-approach
I gotta sleep soon aha but I'll leave you with a last question for tonight: what do you think mediates Apigenin's efficacy for sleep? Like what is the mechanism behind its efficacy, what systems does it modulate?
Thanks and no rush, I'll listen to that article tomorrow :)
So, it's interesting, because it's well-known to have effects on the same GABA receptors as benzodiazepines (like Xanax), but none of the addictive, physical dependence problems, and apigenin doesn't respond consistently to the drug we use to reverse benzos (called flumazenil).
So... we're not entirely sure? It could still be the GABA effects that help with sleep. But there's also a host of antiinflammatory neurological effects that probably better explain its efficacy against Alzheimer's, for example.
Now, if you really want to put yourself to sleep, feel free to crawl through this alphabet soup of a research article lol:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6472148/
Thanks and I will check those out. Does the flumazenil displace GABA_B ligands/receptors as well or only _A?
Thats all for tonight, night
Oh you're getting in the weeds now hahaha. Looks like it's primarily GABA_A
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5326685/
I just had to look that shit up haha. I've never thought to check into it beyond just "you're not breathing, so I'm about to make you very angry by reversing your high, sorry bro" lol
It seems as if _B ligands are both way less ubiquitous and also variably less-reinforcing than traditional alcohol-type sedatives like benzos/barbs/sleeps, although I say that very conjecturally (is that a word? Aha). And less likely to be overdone to the point the therapeutic window is being dangerously exceeded or a polypharmacy situation that leads to medical emergency like that
From my own experience with baclofen which I used to wean off drinking and help with the induced anxiety, I didn't really find it super pleasent or enjoyable and there were enough annoying sides like tearing up and a crappy fuzziness that was super offputting. Alcohol and sedatives (especially sleeping pills), totes different story (I find them as a class GABA_A way more dangerous and mindlessly compulsive.
Huh, now that's super interesting.
Ok you and I both have to go to sleep, but now you've got me wondering about the eternal debate amongst our medical residents about benzos vs. barbiturates for acute alcohol withdrawal. I'll have to read up on this some more
Yeah, ask about baclofen, its famously advocated by a French dr who struggled to find a proper treatment for his alcoholism until he arrived on baclofen.
End of My Addictionis the title.I used it as an adjuvant treatment along with naltrexone and careful timing in terms of the actual drinking that was required to make the naltrexone effective in addressing the neurochemical basis for much of the compulsion from alcohol.