this post was submitted on 28 Aug 2023
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Pupils will be banned from wearing abayas, loose-fitting full-length robes worn by some Muslim women, in France's state-run schools, the education minister has said.

The rule will be applied as soon as the new school year starts on 4 September.

France has a strict ban on religious signs in state schools and government buildings, arguing that they violate secular laws.

Wearing a headscarf has been banned since 2004 in state-run schools.

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[–] Moyer1666@lemmy.ml 85 points 1 year ago (5 children)

I'm not sure I like this. I sort of get not allowing religious symbols to be worn, but you're forcing people to dress in a certain way. I don't think the government should be able to do that

[–] Rukmer@lemmy.world 30 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I feel like conflicted is the "correct" way to feel. On one hand, the government is literally enforcing clothing laws. On the other hand, this may prevent children from being forced into something they did not choose. I feel like a religion wrapping up your child in cloth so they lose their individually as a human being is cult-like behavior.

It would be better if the religion just wasn't allowed to make them do this, but then they would just "suggest" women do this. This "suggestion" of course is actually coercion at best.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's a dress. It isn't a headscarf or something. It's just a loose dress.

[–] Rukmer@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The accompanying image appears to be showing a head covering? I am visually impaired though so correct me if I'm wrong.

[–] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] Rukmer@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

This article clarifies that they sometimes do and sometimes do not include a head covering, so thanks for that clarification. The information under the rationale heading is what I had in mind when making my comment. I was in a Christian cult that controlled the way we dressed, and wanted us all to be very uniform (no personality, that would detract from God's message) and modest (we'd be tempting men of skirts weren't long, etc.).

[–] arc@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago

France has been enforcing secularism since the turn of the 20th century. If you turn up with a turban, or a yarmulke, or a cross you'd be sent home too. If parents feel so aggrieved that the state disallows religious symbolism & clothing on state property they can send their kids to a private school.

[–] killeronthecorner@lemmy.world 30 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This is where I landed. They should simply continue to permit children to remove it at school if they choose, while they are under the guardianship of the state.

[–] Estebiu@lemmy.dbzer0.com 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The kids won't, because they're too scared to disobey their parents.

[–] killeronthecorner@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That has nothing to do with the purview or remit of the state.

[–] Smk@lemmy.ca 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

What's your thought on school's uniform?

[–] Moyer1666@lemmy.ml 13 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I never felt like there was much of a point for them. It was annoying for my family because we always had to buy specific clothes for school

[–] Mr_Blott@feddit.uk 11 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The whole point nowadays is to stop kids being bullied for not being able to afford the "right" clothes; that's part of the point of this law too

[–] duffman@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Prevention of tribes is the best benefit imo. I remember on school there were a number of ethnic/cultural groups that didn't socialize with people out of their group. I don't believe that fosters a healthy community, and behaviors or symbolic garments to identify you as a member of a group reinforce those group identities instead of all being human beings.

[–] TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Yup. I'm thankful for school uniforms. I came from a poor family and being mocked for wearing cheap clothes would've been awful, I was already ridiculed enough for my background as-is.

Personally I'm with France on this one.

[–] Nomad@infosec.pub 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

At this point they should just mandate school uniform.

[–] Stovetop@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

I'm not against it, honestly. I have seen the pros and cons of each. We had a loose dress code at my school but no uniforms, and style of dress certainly became one mode of division among students. Rich kids, poor kids, athletes, nerds, etc. were all separated by dress.

I'm not the biggest fan of conformity, but uniform dress codes allow the students to basically be at a level playing field as far as visual expression goes. I've worked in schools with uniforms and the students there seem to prefer not having to put any thought into what they wear.

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (4 children)

But religion and family should? 🤔

[–] afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago

Is condemning one thing endorsing another? Do two things wrongs make a right?

[–] victron@programming.dev 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I get you, but... isn't religion supposed to be a free decision? you're agreeing to their terms and conditions (I know, I know, you can stop the laugh track).

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You really believe that families religious enough to force their kids to wear certain clothes would accept that they renounce their religion?

[–] victron@programming.dev 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Yep, hence the laugh track. I was raised as a Christian (atheist now) and I know first hand you don't get to choose lol but renouncing a religion is not a crime (in my country at least)

[–] Project_Straylight@lemmy.villa-straylight.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Well up that laugh track to 11 when you hear what islam thinks about that last part

[–] victron@programming.dev 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah, I know such cases exists.

[–] Moyer1666@lemmy.ml 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

No, it those shouldn't either. Which is why I'm conflicted here.

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 year ago

I'm playing Devil's advocate honestly. I'm much more comfortable with Quebec's take than France's (which is similar but one step above, in Quebec it only applies to government employees in a position of authority)

[–] Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

As for religion you have the choice to follow it or not, and following it comes with the burden of wearing certain things but you can choose to not follow that religion whenever you want if you want to dress differently. In a public school you should be able to choose what you wear, because you pretty much have to go to school.

[–] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 9 points 1 year ago

You can stop following it whenever you want?

You realise that we're talking about kids here, right?

[–] Kyoyeou@slrpnk.net 6 points 1 year ago

I agree with this. But my girlfriend would certainly not. We're in France and yet the pressure of her family on religion makes it that even on point she doesn't care much about, there is so much behind her that it's a real real pressure to respect the religion, which is hard to sometimes imagine, and to me an atheist seems ridiculous, you should make your own choices, well, for her, simply because of the people she is with. Not following certain religious rules can cost her a lot. Economically or Mentally for exemple