Stanard

Also, I'm not blaming anyone or any government. I'm not speaking anything about self defense, other than that self defense does not entail violence against innocent people. I do not know enough of the topic or conflict to get into any of that. I am solely pointing out that blindly killing anyone and everyone in proximity of some wrong doing, regardless of their involvement in said wrong doing, is in and of itself wrong.

Are you implying that all Palestinian people are apart of "a terrorist organization"? You are beginning to come across as full on racist. At what point does "Justice" turn into terrorism in itself? How many innocent people is it "okay" to kill in the name of defeating a terrorist organization? It isn't just "a terrorist organization" being killed.

Palestinian == terrorist. Hamas == terrorists. Killing hundreds/thousands of Palestinians in order to kill Hamas is not okay. Bombing a hospital filled with Palestinians is not okay.

Also, which is it? Is Hamas "a terrorist organization" or a government?

And what does that change exactly? Definition: A government is a group of people governing an organized community. So if that organized community were a bunch of robbers or terrorists, and they had some others to govern them, they are by definition a government. If that government or organized community then holds you hostage, does that somehow make it different compared to if it were just a group of unorganized robbers or terrorists that didn't have leaders? So just because some common criminals have a leader, making them a "government", all of a sudden it's ok to kill you along with them?

Let me simplify that. Gangs are governments by definition, i.e. an organized community with leaders. If you, your family, and/or friends were held hostage by a gang, you are saying it's okay to kill you, your family, and/or friends in the name of killing off some gangsters. If that feels wrong then you need to rethink your opinion because that is a direct equivalence to what is happening between Israel and Hamas/Palestinians. Hamas are the equivalent to gangsters and Israel is the equivalent to the US government acting through the police to murder people you love in the name of killing off gangsters.

Let me answer that first question for you because I now believe you're too thick skulled to figure it out yourself. The fact that it's a "government" changes nothing in regards to another "government" killing innocent people.

Please note, I am not(!!) advocating for Hamas. What they have done and are still doing is fucking terrible. I condemn it with every fiber of my being. But to say that innocent people brought their own deaths upon themselves simply for existing on the wrong side of an imaginary line is fucked up. The only people that are "losing" in this conflict are the innocent people dying on both sides of the imaginary line. And if you can't agree with that I'm done replying. Just because someone is Palestinian doesn't make their deaths any better or worse than if they're Israeli. Innocent civilians are innocent civilians regardless of which side of the line they're on. I condemn any and all violence in this conflict. Both governments think they're in the right and the only people that suffer are those caught in the crossfire. Full stop. May you find a little empathy, have a nice night, and a good life.

Edit: tl;dr ITT I try and fail to convey that terrorists using innocent people as meat shields/hostages is wrong and a government bombing those terrorists along with their hostages is also wrong. I dunno how that's too confusing for anyone to understand but I guess some folk truly are lost causes.

Original comment below:

Are you implying that Israel has not done any bombing whatsoever? Or are you implying that terrorists hiding behind innocent people means everyone involved must die by bombing? Or are you just a troll trying to get a reaction from people by posting an obviously ignorant comment?

Let me ask you this, if some bank robbers took your family and friends hostage, what do you think the response should be? By your own logic I must assume that they all need to die because criminals were using them as meat shields. By your logic, if your home is being robbed and the robber uses you as a shield, the response should be to mow you down along with the robber. How unlucky for you that the robber chose your house eh? How ignorant.

And if you're struggling to put yourself in those shoes, good. Be glad that you're so far removed from such dangers. But you are not immune. Criminals and potential terrorists exist everywhere, and I truly hope that if you ever find yourself in a hostage situation that the response isn't what you idolize for innocent people in a foreign land. Because even unemphatic scum don't deserve to die simply for being a hostage.

I'd like to assume that you simply forgot a "/s", and I apologize if the sarcastic intent of your comment was lost, but there are people that truly believe what you've said.

I wouldn't pretend it's not something terrorists would do. I think what people are upset about is more like: let's assume that there is a terrorist HQ being run in a school. Let's also assume their are innocent people of any and all ages in that same school. Finally, let's assume there are only two options to deal with the terrorist HQ (there could be others in reality but for this exercise there are only two options).

Option a) bomb the school, injuring and killing everyone inside. Option b) a specialized operation that will only target the terrorists but may result in casualties to your army.

People, and myself, are upset that the option being chosen seems to overwhelmingly be option a, the indiscriminate injury and death of everyone in the building whether innocent or terrorist. No judge and no jury for anyone involved, only death.

For me at least, this cartoon is not pointing out that terrorists would run an HQ in a school. It's pointing out that currently the IDF cannot, or will not, see past the fact that this is still a picture of a school. It may contain a terrorist HQ, but it's not a building labeled "terrorist HQ" with the sole function of being a terrorist HQ. This is a picture of a school that may also house a terrorist HQ. And that is a very very important distinction that seems to be wildly ignored.

I'm confused what this is trying to say. You tried defending genocide? Because that's messed up.

If you're claiming that a left-wing forum was defending genocide I'm gonna have to doubt that unless provided proof. From what I've seen genocide seems to be an ideal exclusive to the right-wing authoritarian crowd.

The only way to kill an entire population of peoples is to not allow for people to disagree with you, because people will disagree with you if you're trying to kill an entire population of peoples.

I'm not sure what you're arguing. That someone invented the iPhone and it went on to be a very successful product for a multi-trillion dollar company? The iPod was out for years before then. Before that there were portable CD players, before that were portable cassette players, and before that portable radios. Long before any of that people would set wood on fire and sing while playing instruments they carved from other wood.

Corporations do get things wrong plenty often. Successful corporations will not invest more than they can afford to on anything, and won't mass produce a product that their user-surveys and number crunchers say won't make them money. Sometimes those surveys and numbers are wrong, but a corporation doesn't build a worth of trillions of dollars by making stuff and putting it all directly in the dump.

I agree with you almost entirely. There are definitely deceptive advertising practices all over by every industry. And subliminal messaging is in use everywhere. Both are getting worse all the time as people trade privacy for convenience, myself included. A quick search will reveal many results of people talking about how they've talked about something for the first time that they have no interest in and being shown ads for it later. Advertising has reached the point where companies can tell when a woman is pregnant before she does and start advertising accordingly.

I also agree that for most of this, consumers are the virtually powerless underdogs. The only way to truly stop it, if there even is a way to stop something like subliminal advertising, is legislation.

All that said, I do think that consumers can do more than we are. In the current world it seems like waiting for politicians that are bought and paid for by these companies to pass legislation that these companies don't want is the wrong course of action if the goal is to decrease consumption. Nations want you to consume because that makes the economy look better.

However, educating ourselves, and more importantly each other, on these deceptive advertising practices, and taking an active stance to consciously combat said practices can make an immediate impact while we wait/hope for meaningful legislation. If we're watching a movie or TV show with friends and see some subtle product placement, call it out. When we're at the store take a moment to consciously think about whether we need some product, and what the consequences of buying said product are. How much energy is used, what kind of waste does it make both during production and after consumption. If it's recyclable, how? And how much energy is used in doing so? We should all demand to know what our local recycling policies are. Not just what they accept as "recyclable" but whether they actually recycle or just send it to a dump anyway. And wherever possible opt for options that are better for our world and better yet, going without when possible. I see a lot of "keeping up with the Joneses" in the modern world, and so much waste that seems reasonable avoidable.

I think I got a bit sidetracked. I definitely don't think we as consumers can do everything, and I think pretty much the full responsibility should fall on corporations and those in power, but currently that's largely not the case. And I don't think we have time to wait for that to change.

Ultimately I definitely think we largely agree; maybe slight differences in the how, but the end goal seems the same. As far as I can tell we are allies. We can and should help each other and others to advocate for personal changes and policy/legislative changes to combat the rampant over-consumption and over-production in the world today. I don't have children but I still want a livable Earth for future generations so so much.

You're making several assumptions that I don't think I've said or even alluded to. I don't think I've mentioned religion or motivation at all. All I've been trying to say is I disagree with the death of innocent people. I've agreed with you 100% that I do not have a good grasp of the situation and frankly I don't think you or most people do have a full grasp of the situation. You probably know more than me, good job. I still disagree with any person, country, military, religion, etc. taking the lives of innocent people. I recognize that sometimes it can mean fewer deaths in the long run, but seeing as I don't have absolute knowledge of the situation it's not my call to make. I'm not arguing whether one side is doing more harm than the other. I'm not arguing whether one side is more evil, or what their reason for killing is. I'm arguing that innocent people dying sucks. This will be my last reply to you/this thread because I don't have anything else to say. Killing innocent people should be avoided wherever possible because innocent people dying sucks. I'm not sure how that's such a hard concept to grasp or why anyone would argue that killing innocent people is good but evil does exist in this world and it sucks.

Have a wonderful day and may you achieve any and all of your non-evil dreams.

True, although to be fair the first iPhone wasn't released until late 2007. Timeline of Apple releases

How optimistic to think you'd make it to trial for your theft.