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LoglineLa’An travels back in time to twenty-first-century Earth to prevent an attack which will alter humanity’s future history—and bring her face to face with her own contentious legacy.


Written by David Reed

Directed by Amanda Row

Note: This is a second attempt, as technical difficulties were preventing people from seeing the original discussion post. Apologies to the people who were able to comment in the original.

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[–] Mezentine@startrek.website 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (3 children)

The more I think about this episode the more impressed I get. There's so many small moments where they could have taken the easy, obvious choice and it would have been fine, and instead they were just a little more thoughtful and a little more creative and it shows.

They could have just had Pelia push a secret button to reveal her stash of alien tech, and that probably would have been fine. Instead they show her as this woman who's very smart and obviously immortal but otherwise...just a person living through history, which is so much better. Imagining the 250 years between the present and when she's one of the most famous engineers in the fleet is fun.

They could have had the Romulan agent just be a cold, ruthless assassin from the future who's here to get the job done, and that would have been fine. Instead she's this slightly unhinged woman, trapped out of time, stuck undercover on an alien world for thirty years on a mission that she's not sure exists anymore and I love the way she starts losing it at the end, that she just wants to kill this kid and be done with it.

They could have cast Khan as a hot 20 something available in the Toronto area and had him to a Ricardo Montalbán impression and give us a tense standoff, and I would have been annoyed at that, but it probably would have been fine. Instead they show us an actual child, and remind is that Khan was a horrifying monster, but he was created by a world with monsters of its own, monsters who built a child in a laboratory and raised him in a basement, and suddenly its a piece of implied context made explicit that I didn't even know I wanted.

And of course they could have just had Kirk agree to fix the timeline because its the right thing to do, or because he loves La`an, or because...honestly, because the plot has to happen, this is something that so many stories would just gloss over to keep the story moving. And instead we get one line, "Sam's alive?" and my heart jumped to my throat a little bit and immediately we understand why he's willing to go through with this.

I'm really really impressed with the writers on this episode.

[–] IonAddis@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago

They could have just had Pelia push a secret button to reveal her stash of alien tech, and that probably would have been fine. Instead they show her as this woman who’s very smart and obviously immortal but otherwise…just a person living through history, which is so much better. Imagining the 250 years between the present and when she’s one of the most famous engineers in the fleet is fun.

It's not just fun--but it speaks to a different demographic than most shows speak to.

It's telling older women that it's not too late to change and grow and learn. Here she is, obviously having already lived a long life--but then we learn she hasn't ALWAYS been an engineer from the start. She did not begin as someone obviously fascinated by science.

She realized later in life. And then she was able to SUCCESSFULLY pursue her career and become an expert. Just because she wasn't a child prodigy didn't mean she couldn't learn and grow. There's SO many stories focusing on people who have things 100% right immediately out of the gate. Top grades in school, top performance at work, accolades, reccomendations from the time they were teens.

But this story is of an ordinary eccentric retail worker...who goes back to hit the books and succeeds with her change.

This lesson will go over 75% people's heads...but in true Star Trek fashion, even if it elludes many, it'll hit home with the demographic it's meant to talk to. Older women who feel like they're too old to change. That they shouldn't even try. It's talking to THEM like so many other characters in Star Trek talk to other overlooked people.

And that makes this detail--one out of many in this excellent episode--top Star Trek.

[–] stuck@startrek.website 3 points 1 year ago

Wow. You get my first Lemmy upvote on this post! Thank you for pointing out all these details.

[–] Mezentine@startrek.website 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Although it does remain very funny that they're doing this much work to make us care about Sam Kirk, a character who's fate is to die off screen to a brain parasite before the episode even starts. Sorry Sam.

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[–] buckykat@lemmy.fmhy.ml 6 points 1 year ago

Kirk gets a mysterious call in the middle of the night from a woman he's never met asking weird questions and his response is to ask her out

10/10 Kirk behavior

[–] Tired8281@startrek.website 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Did she leave that gun with that little boy?

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[–] Mezentine@startrek.website 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Also it feels kind of significant that they finally dropped the word socialist on screen to describe the Federation? They've always danced around it before, but I'm glad they finally made it explicit, even in an off hand way. It helps make the Federation feel less "magical" and more like something that people who existed in history, connected to both the past and the future, had to actually build

[–] StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website 6 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Having Pelia say it, with the lens of historical perspective, is perfect.

The Federation may not use the word or describe its society that way, but someone who’d lived in the United States in the 20th and 21st century might.

[–] Mezentine@startrek.website 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I really really like Pelia as a character and a concept. I think its a very smart approach to immortality to have her be someone both used to and unresistant to change. The world happens. Time moves on. Over centuries kingdoms turn into empires turn into wastelands turn into spacefaring cooperatives and she's not jaded nor stagnant, she just continues to grow and adapt and change as things change around her.

[–] lemillionsocks@beehaw.org 2 points 1 year ago

I do love also how she's not some wisened genius race. She's just old. Like maybe her people were space faring at some point in time, but given how long they live getting fast high end tech isnt necessary so they probably werent as advanced as most species we encounter in star trek.

But also even if they were it's been a long time since they used their tech and even if they remember it it's not like she would know how to build it. Like I know how to drive a car, and can do some basic mechanic work, and I know the broad strokes of how an internal combustion engine works. If someone asked me to build them a car they'd be out of luck.

[–] arkclr@startrek.website 5 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Did anyone else catch what looked like an unspoken, knowing look from Pelia when La'an appeared on the bridge after returning? Does Pelia somehow remember their prior encounter on Earth? Is it explicit, or more like the way Guinan would have an intuition, or a subliminal feeling? Or did I imagine that?

[–] linux2647@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I feel like it was a “aha I remember when you wore that outfit.” I was kind of hoping they would have a conversation at the end. Instead we got the DTI 😄

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[–] Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 2 points 1 year ago

It's unfortunate that the writers didn't plan this beforehand, so we could have had some foreshadowing a few episodes beforehand with a first meeting between the two where pelia acts a little weird (because she remembers her from 200 years ago).

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[–] Continuumguy@startrek.website 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Random thoughts as I watch (cross-posted from the old place):

  • Wow, first that outburst, and then Spock jams too much. Truly in his wild child phase.

  • BTW, was that a Denobulan?

  • Pelia totally worried that this whole utopia thing just a passing trend. And hilariously having to prove (?) she isn't a thief.

  • They really are taking advantage of Babs O's Jiu-Jitsu training this year, aren't they?

  • Captain James T. Kirk, the greatest menace of Temporal Investigations!

  • Oh boy, alternate timeline where the Federation doesn't exist time!

  • "Maple leaves, politeness, poutine."

  • Clever distraction.

  • I wonder if 3D chess is a thing in the United Earth Fleet timeline, because Kirk is good at the 2D in it.

  • Okay, I guess they do have 3D Chess.

  • I generally try not to be like this... but goddamn I'd like to thank them for having Christina Chong in various states of tight clothing and undress.

  • Good thing the time travel guy went to the ship Sam Kirk was on.

  • Oh man, I was looking forward to driving across Lake Ontario to Toronto (presumably from Rochester or Buffalo or something, right?), which totally would be a logical economic and engineering choice, I'm sure!

  • Mildly annoyed that Kirk doesn't drive to Beastie Boys.

  • James Discreet Kirk

  • Soongs gonna break in even to the timelines and series they aren't in.

  • Jim Discretion Kirk

  • OH FUCK ROMULANS

  • We have gone (zero) days without Romulans trying to screw up the timeline.

  • Probably the first time that DuckDuckGo has been mentioned in Star Trek.

  • Yeah, Pythagoras is the worst, Pelia.

  • Oh, so this is a predestination paradox where they make her become an engineer and as a result she is there to inspire La'An to go look for her later.

  • KHAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN! KHAAAAANNNNNNNNN! (Or at least the institute for him)

  • To be fair, this is like the third face that Captain Kirk has had.

  • We have gone (ZERO) days without a time-travelling Romulan that had to ditch the ears.

  • We have gone (ZERO) days without (a) Captain Kirk dying. We're three-for-three on Kirk actor deaths, folks!

  • KHAAAAAAAAAANNNN! KHAAAAAAANNNN! KHAAAAAAANNNNNN!

  • THEY CAME UP WITH AN EXPLANATION WHY THE EUGENICS WARS DIDN'T HAPPEN IN THE 90'S! THE MAD LADS DID IT!

  • Face to face with great-great-great-great grandpa Baby Genetics-Hitler.

  • Oh, great, temporal investigations. No wonder they hate Kirk so much, even his alternate versions screw stuff around.

  • Good ep. Way better than it sounded when I first heard about it.

[–] Justas@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago

I wish the Romulan agent succeeded but that led to a stronger Federation instead just to spite those meddling aliens.

[–] Mezentine@startrek.website 4 points 1 year ago

Okay there was a lot that worked for me in that episode. The amazing decision to have Pelia knowing nothing about engineering to being a veteran warp core engineer in 200 years. Going for child Khan and really leaning into the fucked up reality that these children were science experiments kept locked in basements for the first time in the franchise? The reminder that Toronto is actually pretty damn photogenic when it's not shot on a CW budget.

And you know what? Paul Wesley doesn't have Kirks voice, and the script still doesn't quite sound right, but he's got the Kirk delivery really nailed. He doesn't sound like Shatner, but he sounds like Kirk

[–] bunkyprewster@startrek.website 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I love that Kirk had to die saving his own worst enemy so that the Federation could exist.

[–] FormerGameDev@midwest.social 2 points 1 year ago (3 children)

and subverting the "hero goes back in time to kill a mass murderer" trope, with "hero goes back in time to save a mass murderer"

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[–] BROMETHIUS@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Am I confused or is this a Star Trek “sub lemmy” that is super active? Is this an rss feed from Reddit or something?

If this is already this active, then fuck yeah lol

[–] IonAddis@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Star Trek fandom is OLD. And a lot of the old fans go back to the BBS and email list days. They've/we've weathered plenty of technology changes.

This is in fact the one sub I am NOT surprised is so active. It's one part Old Fandom, and one part the new shows coming out being pretty good, making the fandom alive and kicking instead of moribund and dead.

[–] MichelleBirkby@geekdom.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

@IonAddis @BROMETHIUS oh, I remember fandom when it was hand printed zines through the post - fandom survives, fandom finds a way

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[–] StillPaisleyCat@startrek.website 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

I didn’t expect to like this episode as much as I did.

Wesley’s Kirk is growing on me, and I give the EPs credit for using the alternate timeline Kirk’s to let his performance coalesce. I also like the deft weaving of the crazy car driving, heartbreaker Kirk with the think five steps ahead genius that he also had to be.

The acknowledgement in-universe that the timeline and humanity’s development has been interfered with is entirely credible given the accretion of temporal incidents across every era of the franchise.

I’m not sure how I feel about it giving comfort to those who feel so strongly that this isn’t the same timeline as the original TOS one. (I see some chortling on this point elsewhere.) Likely the temporal physics of this is best left for a deep dive /c/Daystrom Institute discussion, but I prefer hold to a view that this is absolutely still the same Prime timeline but that the timeline itself has been perturbed repeatedly even if the key events have kept their integrity. In fact, the Romulan temporal agent, while not a reliable narrator, gave credence to the idea that the Prime timeline had proven unexpectedly robust against major intervention by humanity’s enemies.

I was delighted to see DTI show up and be named. It seems all of a piece of DTI’s rigidity that they would leave La’an alone to deal with the trauma. It does however mirror Pike’s own experience in sealing his future with the time crystal. One senses that there must be some kind of intersection or mutual revelation to come, leaving aside the Chekhov’s gun of the temporally dislocated watch.

Knowing that Anson Mount had to relocate to Toronto with his wife and newborn explains why episodes featuring others in the ensemble were front loaded for this season. He’d said before he committed to the show that creative conversations would be needed as he wasn’t wishing to repeat the production experience he had in Discovery season two. A creative conversation with the EPs that limits a principal character’s presence is fairly extraordinary, but Mount seems to have done it in a way that’s generous to the rest of the ensemble.

With an ensemble so strong, and as we didn’t see as much of Chapel or Una as we would have liked last season, I’m fine with waiting to see more Pike later in the season. It sounds as though we have a Spock focused and an Ortegas to come before some big ensemble pieces in the back half.

[–] NuPNuA@lemm.ee 3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

If anything doesn't this prove that this does take place in the same timeline as TOS but that timeline is in flux due to time travel and interference?

That’s exactly it.

[–] CeruleanRuin@lemmy.one 2 points 1 year ago

That really explains a lot. Kudos to the production for really playing well to their constraints like this.

[–] cybervseas@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Wait what's this? Star Trek writers can still create a time travel story that wraps up in an episode (or two) instead of lasting a whole 10 episodes of nothing?!

And they can weave in minor plot points from previous episodes to give it continuity without feeling forced?

How can this be?

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[–] UESPA_Sputnik@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

[Copying my post from the original thread and adding something to the bottom]

Christina Chong absolutely killed it, especially in that final scene. Imagine finding someone you can connect to for the first time in your life, and immediately lose them. It even makes someone who is usually very unemotional crack.

Also, Pelia is such a delightful character. Great addition to the show.

Other than that I’m not really sold on the episode. It’s over an hour long and it did feel (too) slow and meandering at times. And I feel as if it just existed to shove in Kirk once again (and once again in an alternate timeline scenario to stick to the Trek canon) and explain the postponement of the Eugenics Wars by some Temporal Cold War shenenigans.

Final nitpick: how can Spock exist in the alternate timeline if humans and Vulcans are enemies?

Others wrote about how it was interesting that La'an had to choose to keep baby tyrant Khan alive for the greater good (of the future paradise Earth). And I agree that it's an interesting conundrum – but that was given so little space in the episode that it fell entirely flat for me. La'an found out early on that Kirk didn't know Noonien-Singh but that plot point was dropped for 30 minutes and only brought up again in the final minutes. In that aspect it reminded my of "The Elysian Kingdom" last season where nothing happens for 45 minutes and the interesting stuff comes out of the left field at the very end of the episode.

Maybe I'm being too harsh (I'll rewatch the episode in a couple of days together with a friend) but for now I'd say this was one of the weaker episodes of the series.

[–] Spoken_Weakley@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

"This was supposed to happen in 1992!"

Is that a reference to how the eugenics wars were supposed to happen in the 90's but obviously those came and went so they're softly retconning when the eugenics wars took place?

[–] XiberKernel@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

I kinda like this theory. The temporal wars are still affecting the timeline, but time is pushing back to repair the timeline. In-universe reason to both retcon and act as a story element as well (with hopefully a Wesley Crusher appearance at some point?)

[–] astroturds@startrek.website 2 points 1 year ago (5 children)

Kirk was superb, I don't think I could have accepted the car scene if it was anyone else. It's Kirk, of course he's going to drive like a nutter. I was genuinely shocked when he got shot. I thought there couldn't possibly be a way for him to make it but they still got me.

La'an has grown on me so much, she was the one I was most dubious about in the early episodes of season one. I felt really sorry for her at the end, losing Kirk and being unable to talk to anyone about what she's experienced. She's gone through some pretty serious trauma already due to her genes and name and now she's had to go through this pure insanity. I wonder what the significance of the watch is.

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[–] lwaxana_katana@startrek.website 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This was definitely my favourite episode of the season, and possibly of the series. I thought Kirk was badly cast, but actually after seeing him in this episode, I get it. He is not our Kirk, but he actually does bring something very Kirk-ish to the role that I hadn't appreciated previously.

[–] arkclr@startrek.website 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That is an excellent way of stating it, re Kirk. He wasn't doing it for me, and I thought I had it figured. He looks like Pine, who tried to mimic Shatner's mannerisms, but didn't really deliver the Shatnerisms. Here I was able to accept him as his own thing, and it was fine.

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[–] CynicalStoic@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Really enjoyed this episode! Wasn’t quite sure where it was going at first but just went along for the ride and ended up really liking it. Refreshing to see a good temporal mechanics Star Trek episode again.

I’m not 100% sold on new Kirk yet but I also don’t dislike him either. It’s kind of surprising given how well Ethan Peck fits as Spock, I would have thought that Kirk’s casting would be equally spot on.

Still, curious to see where this goes, definitely loving the ride!

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[–] pinwurm@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

A little late to the game but I really loved this episode.

Only thing that didn’t quite make sense to me was the romantic connection between La’an and Kirk. It felt forced - and I feel like the episode would’ve been just as strong without it. Just them bonding as friends, who are going through this deeply traumatic time travel experience together - would’ve been more than enough.

I can appreciate that La’an would be more vulnerable as a result Kirk not knowing her family name, but she oggled him in the changing room before that was revealed. Seemed out of character.

Otherwise, I’m really curious to see what kind of timeline implication all of this will have - and if the watch will make way back in the series somehow.

[–] writerlygal@lemm.ee 1 points 1 year ago

That was such a great episode. I watched it last night and woke up thinking about it. Really great. I love the addition of Pella in the crew, and that La-An went to her for help later in the episode.

Do have to admit that I was a tad disappointed that Pella didn't come to her at the end remarking something about the clothes looking familiar.

And this James T. Kirk is growing on me! I first wasn't convinced, but he really was so good in this episode. The call at the end was so bittersweet.

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