this post was submitted on 31 Oct 2023

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144

Traumatized Thai farmer recounts horror of Hamas massacre as families wait for news of loved ones held hostage | CNN (edition.cnn.com)

submitted 1 year ago by steventhedev@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

41 comments fedilink hide all child comments

The Thai government has called for the release of all remaining citizens being held in Gaza. So far at least 33 Thai nationals have been killed, according to figures shared by Thai authorities with CNN – with 18 Thai nationals still being held hostage as of October 26.

all 45 comments

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[–] jet@hackertalks.com 31 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I'm glad this man was released, and I hope the rest are released soon.

I do wonder about the sustainability of importing labor from half way around the world when there is a huge pool of jobless young people kilometers away. I realize its probably for security reasons, but it speaks to the economic barriers that are in the way to integration of the populations.

Thai deaths in Hamas massacre spotlight poor agricultural workers from Asia who toil in Israel’s fields - CNN

“During the 1990s, migrant workers (began to) replace Palestinians working in construction sites and agriculture fields as Palestinians workers became unwelcome and ‘unreliable’ due to regular lock downs and security issues,” Ladizhinskaya added.

[–] steventhedev@lemmy.world 28 points 1 year ago

...Kunwong was left for dead, heavily bleeding from the wound in his throat. He was eventually found and cared for by other migrant workers. He managed to survive, he believes, because the knife had been blunt and broken.

He wasn't released by Hamas. He escaped the hell of October 7th by sheer luck.

speaks to the economic barriers that are in the way to integration of the populations

There were many Palestinians living in the West Bank and even from Gaza who would enter Israel to work in various industries (mostly agriculture and construction) prior to October 7th. Most legally with work visas, and some illegally. I doubt that that level of economic cooperation will ever return.

[–] nonailsleft@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's weird how this article seems to hint at Thai workers being exploited. I read elsewhere they're paid 5-6 times what they would be making at home... Not to say the system isn't fucky but it doesn't seem these workers are being duped into this

[–] steventhedev@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago

The Israeli regulations around employing any foreign worker are very fair on paper (Google Translate), but there are regular stories highlighting various abuses of the system.

The only rights they don't get compared to an Israeli citizen seem to be around some retirement benefits and some social security stuff. In many ways, it's more complicated than employing an Israeli as they are required to provide them with housing and some industries have required levels of overtime.

The Thai minimum wage seems to be around 330 baht per day. That comes out to around 4.5 shekels per hour, compared to Israeli minimum wage of 30 shekels per hour.

So 5-6 times more is about right, assuming they would be earning minimum wage in both places.

[–] WidowsFavoriteSon@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Hamas could achieve a cease-fire right now by releasing the hostages. But then they would have to account for the ones they have already murdered.

[–] BraveLittleToaster@lemm.ee 12 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Who is down voting this and why are you down voting it? Explain yourself

[–] 5BC2E7@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

Troll farms or pro hamas tankies

[–] avater@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

stop caring for downvotes on this topic. this discussion has lost its objectivity a long time ago and the current meta is that israel is bad and should somehow bow to terrorism.

I don't know why though 😅

[–] jet@hackertalks.com -3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

If Hamas releases every single hostage they have, they cannot prove they have no more hostages. So the situation would not change.

There is no de-escalation from the current positions, there is going to be an invasion, and Hamas is going to be destroyed, at least as it exist today.

[–] Zaktor@sopuli.xyz -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I did. There's no fucking way this all stops if Hamas just releases the hostages. This is a completely delusional statement.

[–] dumdum666@kbin.social -4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Actually I don’t see one downvote to the comment. But I am a Kbin user so it is always a bit different here.

Just one question: You are usually not able to see who favorited or reduced a comment/article on Lemmy? On kbin you get all those infos.

[–] mlg@lemmy.world -5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Lol, lets just assume for simplicity this is exactly what Hamas demands:

Cease-Fire agreement if we release the Hostages

Israel doesn't care, they already killed several hostages in the bombing runs. Hell the US probably had to tell them to hold back to give them more time for negotiations. They will not accept any agreement with Hamas, so the only thing Hamas would accomplish releasing the Hostages with no agreement would be an instant full invasion.

Moreover, the actual demands from Hamas are basically cease fire + release arrested hamas members in exchange for hostages. Surprisingly, I don't think they actually made one of those impossible demands like "cease the existence of Israel's government"

The reason Hamas is trickling out hostages is because unlike Israel, every other nation does care about the hostages, especially the international ones. Hamas knows this, and can use it as leverage to force Israel to either slow down, stop, or eventually negotiate some sort of agreement. The most important one obviously being the American hostages because the USA has direct military involvement and leverage over Israel.

Whether or not it works is a different story.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I'm pretty sure that's not true. Hamas has already tried that path, but Israel is out for blood. Netenyahu's position is that the incursion should proceed even though it'll kill hostages.

[–] goat@sh.itjust.works 25 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Hamas has never tried for peace.

[+] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social -25 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Okay I'm not exactly a fan of Hamas but that's very, very wrong.

[–] gedaliyah@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm pretty well informed in the area, but willing to learn. Can you please link to information about any time since it's inception that Hamas has offered peaceful relations with Israel?

Israel has made peace with Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, the Palestinian Liberation Organization, Qatar, UAE, etc, often in exchange for Israel giving up land.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social -3 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Can you please link to information about any time since it’s inception that Hamas has offered peaceful relations with Israel?

Well not really peaceful relations, but there were two ceasefires, one in 2008 and another in 2012, that Hamas followed in good faith until it was clear that Israel had no intention of doing that (the 2012 one they kept for more than a year). Both included Israel completely lifting the blockade, which they didn't do no matter how long Hamas waited.

BTW Hamas is uh... Hamas, but they changed their charter in 2017 to only demand a return to 1967 borders.

[–] gedaliyah@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

The 2017 Hamas charter reads:

Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras al-Naqurah [Lebanon] in the north to Umm al-Rashrash [Eilat] in the south, is an integral territorial unit... Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. ...There shall be no recognition of the legitimacy of the Zionist entity. ...At the heart of these lies armed resistance.

Which is nonetheless an improvement over the founding charter:

Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims will kill them until the Jews hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and the stone or tree would say: "Muslim, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him."

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

There's also this in the same document:

Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus.

[–] gedaliyah@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I know that. Do you think that this is evidence that

Hamas... changed their charter in 2017 to only demand a return to 1967 borders.

It is obviously not.

It only acknowledges that Hamas will not oppose such a plan if it is approved by the Palestinian people, along with the specific conditions listed. The document outlines that the long-term demand is irrevocably all of the land from The River To The Sea as a State of Palestine and no State of Israel whatsoever.

It's unambiguous.

But you already saw that because you have read the document. I'm no longer addressing these comments to you, but to the people who've actually read this far in the thread and are interested in learning, rather than propaganda.

So let's look at those specific conditions listed. According to the 2017 charter, who are the "refugees and the displaced?" You might reasonably think that refers to the 700,000 Palestinians who were displaced by the 1948 war. No, as the charter specifies, it is any of the 6.4 million people who can identify at least one Palestinian ancestor. That is over 60% of the current population of Israel. It includes third-generation Americans and Europeans. It includes most members of Hamas.

And what is Israel supposed to do with this 65% increase in population? Again, it's specified in the charter. Israel must "return their homes," meaning provide a physical house for every family at no cost. Additionally, Israel must pay unspecified reparations. There is no amount of reparations that would be acceptable in place of a physical house in Israel, nor any other tolerable location.

To reiterate, Hamas will temporarily recognize a Palestinian State within the 1967 borders

If and only if

Israel agrees to absorb 6.4 million people into a population of under 10 million (including members of Hamas), buy them each a house, pay them additional reparations, and give up any claim on Jerusalem or the 5 holiest sites in Judaism.

Again, this is not my opinion, it is all laid out in the charter itself.

The belief that Hamas is anything other than a terrorist organization intent on eliminating the only Jewish-majority state in the world, is just not borne out by any version of reality.

Meanwhile, Israel has peacefully turned over more land and resources than the entire current area of the State in exchange for peace with neighbors. Israel has offered Palestinian leaders nearly every inch of the land of Palestine, but every offer has been rejected by the Palestinian leaders. Don't be confused by Propaganda.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago

Israel agrees to absorb 6.4 million people into a population of under 10 million (including members of Hamas),

I mean yes. Those are the descendants of the people who were displaced by Israel, and they have a right to return to their homes.

Israel has offered Palestinian leaders nearly every inch of the land of Palestine, but every offer has been rejected by the Palestinian leaders.

That's misinformation. It's a pain to list all of them, so if anyone bothered to read this far and is curious about why any specific offer failed, just ask. Hint: The answer is usually that Israel, not Palestine, refused to compromise.

[–] goat@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 year ago

It's not tho

[–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Why wouldn't Israel be out for blood? America glassed entire countries when provoked, why did anyone think or expect Israel to just take the Oct 7 attack and shrug it off/not react? Fuck Hamas and their "peace attempts" after murdering festival goers and families.

[–] Bye@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

America has never glassed any entire country, they’ve used exactly 2 nuclear bombs on one country and it was two cities, not the whole county.

[–] Shardikprime@lemmy.world 0 points 1 year ago

Yeah but they way people talk about the USA online you would think they systematically genocided a whole race or glassed a country or something. And it's not euphemisms. People write that shit as if they believed it sincerely

[–] Shardikprime@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Also fuck leftists terrorists apologizers

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

America glassed entire countries when provoked,

And did it work? You're implying the war on terror was anything more than a disaster.

[–] Son_of_dad@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I'm saying it's funny you want Israel to take an attack without reaction, after you've reaped the benefits of colonizing and fucking up entire natiions. Imagine if after 9/11, the Taliban had said "we want peace now", would you or any other American have accepted their peace overture?

[–] rambaroo@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Yeah I would since the Taliban had jack shit to do with 9/11. Bombing and invading them for 20 years accomplished absolutely nothing. The US isn't any safer and Afghanistan is worse off.

It's actually a stupid question when you think about it. Would I save thousands of lives on both sides that were needlessly wasted? Yeah, I would. But you just want blood so you don't give a fuck about hearing reason.

[–] NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

I'm from Egypt, so my country was on the other side of colonialism, but that's irrelevant either way.

Imagine if after 9/11, the Taliban had said “we want peace now”, would you or any other American have accepted their peace overture?

The Taliban didn't do 9/11, but that aside 9/11 and this attack are fundamentally different. A closer comparison would be terror attacks against Britain during the Troubles.

[–] blitzkrieg@lemm.ee -1 points 1 year ago

Fuck Israel for occupying Palestinian lands and bombing and killing innocent men, women and many many many children.

[–] andrewta@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

That's a lot of down votes for an honest statement

[–] goat@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 year ago (2 children)

you're on lemmy, what do you expect?

[–] LaLiLuLuCo@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

It's just tiring at this point. Even if you have lived there, aren't a zionist, family been there for 500+ years, and try to cut through all the bullshit to explain the context no one cares. It's just politically extremist tribalism which is exactly what caused the issue we are discussing.

There's also a lot of censorship going on and it's a bit sick since the posts and comments I've seen censored often include Palestinians talking about the situation. largely ones from Hamas, some who left. It doesn't fit whatever whoever is doing the removing wants on the front page I guess.

[–] goat@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Who's removing that?

[–] LaLiLuLuCo@lemmy.ca 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I just see the mod log entries and "post_not_found" errors in my comment history. But it's against the rules to be more specific.

Sometimes it seems like a legitimate site error because I can see the comments in the web UI but not the app api.

[–] assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

It's quite interesting looking at Lemmy and then going back and looking at Reddit. The latter is taking IDF's words as gospel, and the former likes to pretend Hamas and their atrocities don't exist.

Flitting between the two actually helps cancel out the absurd bias.

[–] nonailsleft@lemm.ee -2 points 1 year ago

Hamas will only release the hostages in exchange for all Palestinians in Israeli jails