this post was submitted on 15 Apr 2025
300 points (98.4% liked)

Linux

53474 readers
659 users here now

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).

Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.

Rules

Related Communities

Community icon by Alpár-Etele Méder, licensed under CC BY 3.0

founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] umbrella@lemmy.ml 40 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

agreed, plenty of bug and issues with wayland in the past, but i can now comfortably use it for everything on amd/intel cards.

[–] procapra@lemm.ee 30 points 1 week ago (3 children)

I might switch to wayland when xfce starts to have decent support for it. I'm not a ride or die Xorg fan, I just want to keep using the DE I'm used to.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] Eyedust@lemmy.dbzer0.com 26 points 1 week ago (11 children)

As an average desktop user, I've run into very little pushback on Wayland. Its made huge leaps in a short amount of time.

load more comments (11 replies)
[–] enumerator4829@sh.itjust.works 20 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Rough start? It’s been over a decade and it’s still rough.

[–] snaggen@programming.dev 19 points 1 week ago (14 children)
[–] enumerator4829@sh.itjust.works 33 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I’ll bite. It’s getting better, but still a long way to go.

  • No commercially viable remote desktop or thin client solutions. I’m not talking about just VNC, take a look at for example ThinLinc to see what I’m looking for - a complete solution. (Also, it took like ten rough years before basic unencrypted single user VNC was available at all.) Free multimillion dollar business idea right here folks!
  • Related to the above point - software rendered wayland is painful. To experience this yourselves, install any distro in VirtualBox or VMWare or whatever and compare the usability between a Xorg DE (with compositing turned off) and the same Wayland DE. Just look at the click-to-photon latency and weep. I’ve seen X11 perform better with VNC over WAN.
  • ”We don’t need network transparency, VNC will save us”. See points above.
  • ”Every frame is perfect” went just as well as can be expected, there is a reason VSYNC is an option in games and professional graphics applications. Thanks Valve.
  • I’m assuming wlroots still won’t work on Nvidia, and that the Gnome/KDE implementations are still a hodgepodge, and that Nvidia will still ask me to install the supported Xorg drivers. If I’m wrong, it only took a decade or so to get a desktop working on hardware from the dominant GPU vendor. (Tangentially related - historically the only vendor with product lines specifically for serving GPU-accelerated desktops to thin clients)
  • After over a decade of struggles, we can finally (mostly) share out screens in Zoom. Or so I’m told.

But what do I know, I’ve only deployed and managed desktop linux for a few thousand people. People were screaming about these design flaws back in 2008 when this all started. The criticisms above were known and dismissed as FUD, and here we are. A few architectural changes back then, and we could have done this migration a decade faster. Just imagine, screen sharing during the pandemic!

As an example, see Arcan, a small research project with an impressively large subset of features from both X11 and Wayland (including working screen sharing, network transparency and a functioning security model). I wouldn’t use it in production, but if it was more than one guy in a basement working on it, it would probably be very usable fairly fast, compared to the decade and half that RedHat and friends have poured into Wayland thus far. Using a good architecture from the start would have done wonders. And Wayland isn’t even close to a good architecture. It’s just what we have to work with now.

Hopefully Xorg can die at some point, a decade or so from now. I’m just glad I don’t work with desktops anymore, the swap to Wayland will be painful for a lot of organisations.

[–] priapus@sh.itjust.works 12 points 1 week ago (3 children)

Rustdesk is an alright remote desktop option, although it definitely far from perfect. Wayland offers the support remote desktop needs, this is just up to someone wanting a solution enough to make it.

I agree that the "every frame being perfect" thing was dumb, but tearing support exists so its not really a complaint anymore.

Nvidia does work fine on every major Wayland implementation.

Screensharing works fine.

I understand the disappointment in how long Wayland is taking to be a perfect replacement to X11, but a proper replacement should absolutely not be rushed. X11 released 40 years ago, 15 years to make a replacement with better security and more features is fine.

Wayland has put a huge emphasis on improved security, which is also one of the biggest reasons some features have taken so long. This is a good thing, rushing insecure implementations of features is a horrible idea for modern software that will hopefully last a long time.

In its current state, Wayland is already good for the large majority of use cases.

load more comments (3 replies)
[–] LeFantome@programming.dev 6 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

Your point is that it is still rough and then you bring up a bunch of stuff that is no longer an issue.

NVIDIA in particular is a solved problem with both explicit sync and open source kernel modules as the default from NVIDIA themselves.

RDP, Rustdesk, and Waypipe are probably going to eat into your billion dollars (and network transparency laments).

As stated in the article, opt-out vsync is already a thing (though not widely implemented yet).

I have not used GNOME in a while but KDE on Wayland is great. And the roadmap certainly looks a lot nicer than xorg’s.

I was on a video call in Wayland an hour ago. I shared my screen. I did not think about it much at the time but, since you brought it up….

If that is your full list, I think you just made the case that Wayland is in good shape.

RHEL 9 defaulted to Wayland in 2022 and RHEL 10 will not even include Xorg as an option. Clearly the business world is transitioning to Wayland just fine.

GNOME and KDE both default to Wayland. So, most current Linux desktops do as well.

X11 will be with us a long time but most Linux users will not think about it much after this year. They will all be using Wayland.

load more comments (2 replies)
load more comments (13 replies)
[–] bunitor@lemmy.eco.br 15 points 1 week ago

to the unavoidable "it's been 15 years" comments: 15-year-old x11 was a piece of shit. the difference is that we had no alternative so we had to put up with it

[–] Artopal@lemmy.ml 14 points 1 week ago

"rough start" is putting it mildly. 🤭

[–] arc@lemm.ee 11 points 1 week ago

I'm glad Wayland is maturing and taking over. Even most of the X11 devs hated X11 which tells you something.

[–] juipeltje@lemmy.world 10 points 1 week ago (4 children)

Yeah it's at the point where i'm wondering if i still even need xorg. I'm still keeping it around just in case for now, but i could very easily purge it from my system anytime since i'm using nixos and all my xorg related settings are in a specific file. The main pet peeve i have with wayland is gaming related, and should hopefully improve when wine and proton go native wayland. I have a dual monitor setup and games always choose the wrong monitor by default, which means i can only use the resolution and refreshrate of the secondary monitor. I have a keybind to set the primary xwayland monitor with xrandr, which solves the problem, but it is a bit hacky. I also need to toggle vrr on and off with a keybind because it causes flickering on my monitor. It's a bit annoying but atleast it works, on xorg you can't even use vrr with multi monitor to begin with.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml 10 points 1 week ago (2 children)

You know Wayland will be ready when these threads don't get 100 comments

[–] IndieGoblin@lemmy.4d2.org 1 points 6 days ago

Wayland is already ready and majority of linux desktop users are using it without issue.

[–] arc@lemm.ee 13 points 1 week ago (4 children)

I think Wayland just attracts trolls in the same way as systemd does.

load more comments (4 replies)
[–] k0e3@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I dunno why but I can't even log into KDE when I select wayland. The screen just turns black and unresponsive :(

[–] Cheshire_Snake@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 1 week ago (8 children)

Something similar happens to me on my desktop (debian 13) - it goes black then brings me back to the login screen. But in my case it's probably the nvidia drivers (proprietary). Not certain, though. Still happy on X11 for the meantime.

load more comments (8 replies)
[–] koncertejo@lemmy.ml 7 points 1 week ago

I finally switched when I moved from Arch to Fedora and it's worked fantastically for me. This is where the Linux desktop is heading now for sure.

[–] UnsavoryMollusk@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago (2 children)

I have a shitload of bug/weird behavior with Wayland, I hope it gets better but for me it is not there yet.

load more comments (2 replies)
[–] nothingcorporate@lemmy.today 6 points 1 week ago (2 children)
[–] Yttra@lemmy.world 6 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (2 children)

Hm, I think that's what Ctrl + Meta + Esc* does for me on KDE? Unless there's more to x-kill than just killing windows/processes with a mouse click.

Edit: Originally said Ctrl + Esc, shame on my poor memory

[–] bambam@feddit.uk 6 points 1 week ago (4 children)

TIL about Ctrl-Esc. I've been using Debian/KDE for years and only now find this out... sheesh.

load more comments (4 replies)

There is actually less to ’xkill’. It nukes the X window from orbit in a very violent manner. The owning process(-tree) will usually just instantly curl up and die.

The main benefit is that it doesn’t actually kill the process, it only nukes the window. As such, you can get rid of windows belonging to otherwise unkillable processes (zombies, etc).

Also, it’s fun. Just don’t miss the window and accidentally kill your WM. (Beat that Wayland)

[–] priapus@sh.itjust.works 6 points 1 week ago

Plasma and Hyprland already have one

load more comments
view more: next ›