Having read some (but not all) the comments, I do agree with the idea that decentralization (federation) somehow is what helps to alleviate this problem, although it's such a complex matter that you will have to see how it plays out. For my part, with some exceptions I was more or less satisfied with how Reddit used to be, and part of that was because Reddit was centralized. Reddit not being federated or decentralized is to its benefit because social platforms benefit from having everything all in one place, but what really seems to have done Reddit in was commercialization. It went from being similar to some kind of basic software tool to this corporate nightmare of tracking and ads, algorithmically shaping content, etc. It's like Facebook now but with a red icon. Lemmy wasn't designed to do that, and it will never do that. Federation does help with that.
Ask Lemmy
A Fediverse community for open-ended, thought provoking questions
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Nobody should trust a website that they don't own to meet their standards.
Use it while it's convenient, then move on. it's just lights on a rock. Same for any other website.
Federation.
There's a reason why worldnews@lemmy.world and worldnews@lemmy.ml are not federated with eachother, yet lots of users are subscribed to both.
If I understand it correctly, Lemmy has a similar "landed gentry" moderation scheme, where the first to create a community control it. This was easily exploited on other platforms, particularly in regards to astroturfing, censorship, and controlling a narrative.
For lemmy, it's again a federation thing. You just don't see many multiple defederated examples due to the small user count.
It's not the most optimal solution, but it's still miles better than dealing with single instance or single community issues.
Yeah but what do you do when one instance becomes so big that it dwarfs the other instances, and inevitably pushes them out with its sheer amount of content?
If it starts being evil, the same thing that happened to Digg and is hopefully happening to Reddit should happen, but way faster because it's a one or two-click process.
(Unless you need to switch your home instance, which AT protocol can accommodate but unfortunately not ActivityPub or Lemmy specifically as of yet)
Lemmy is built around forums, which is very distinct from microblogging when it comes to moderation and management.
You don't get the same kind of context collapse as on Twitter. You don't get the same kind of dependency on server wide shared culture like on many niche Mastodon servers. Although context collapse still happens to some degree on reddit and may happen here when threads gets popular, it's possible for forums to be moderated to minimize it and enforce quality. You don't get nearly as many people trying to enforce their rules in others' spaces, because forum makes it clear that it's not "your feed" (like how some try to control what they see not with filters but instead by harassing people who post stuff they don't like), here it's somebody's forum and somebody else is the moderator. You can stop seeing specific content by blocking those forums instead of blocking the users. Forums which you don't interact with doesn't affect you!
Because of how the federation works here, volume alone is never the main problem. Forums can be hosted on small instances just fine. Users on small instances can use big forums just fine. If a particular forum is poorly moderated it can be blocked regardless of where it's hosted. Admins for small servers can filter content from problematic servers, regardless how big they are, and can do it on a per-forum basis too in order to avoid collateral.
Spurious defederation between servers where one has a lot of users is where the problems gets complicated.
On non-federated platforms, the quantity of content contributes to the cost a user experiences when trying to switch to a different platform.
On federated platforms there is zero cost to switching, and even more, it is not zero sum. I can follow both of I think both have value.
Non-federated platforms don't allow such a choice, and there is this hidden cost of inertia built into it that the federation bypasses.
On Reddit, before it went full goose step, you'd have the problem where the top mod of r/linux would be this weird open source zealot who would delete any thread that had any practicality in it. So actual discussion of using Linux would happen in r/linuxmasterrace, which was nominally a meme sub but it's where the actual community landed. You could use Reddit's vast namespace to steer around an individual top mod.
You couldn't steer around Reddit's admin though, they have root access to the servers, they can, have and increasingly do shut things down they don't like. It's double plus ungood.
Lemmy, and indeed the entire Fediverse, offers every user the Bender gambit. You can make your own instance with blackjack and hookers. There is no mechanism to shut it down everywhere. Instances are hosted by multiple people on multiple hardware platforms on multiple power grids in multiple countries under multiple jurisdictions.
The top mod of !linux@example.lol is being a shithead? You could make !actual_linux@example.lol, or you could start !linux@lemmy.world, or you could start your own instance and then YOU are in control of who gets to be a mod on at least one instance. No one person has the power to shut down everything everywhere; you start talking about severing undersea cables at that point.
Lemmy, and indeed the entire Fediverse, offers every user the Bender gambit. You can make your own instance …
It really is that easy. I wasn't sure it would be, but I started up my own instance on a Saturday because I was procrastinating on some work.
I used the Docker method, but apparently Ansible is even easier.
Lol. We need to advertise "The Bender Gambit" more aggressively in our welcome materials. It really is part of what makes this place(s) great.
I'll be sure to do that when I make my own instance, with blackjack and hookers.
And you know what?! Forget the instance .
I actually just found this on knowyourmeme:
Isn’t this still true of Reddit though? You could just make a new subreddit if you don’t like another.
How is it different?
Because at the end of the day, they're all on Reddit. So when reddit says "you'll get banned for upvoting content that promotes violence [against the oligarchs]," you can't just make another subreddit because they'll shut that one down too.
If the admin of lemmy.world says "you'll get banned for upvoting content that promotes violence [against the oligarchs]," then you can say okay and make luigimangione@otherlemmyinstance.com. People on Lemmy.world can still access the new site, or even leave Lemmy.world entirely if they decide they're not down with the admin. But they can still access all of the other federated communities they were subscribed to rather than having to quit Lemmy overall.
What happens if lemmy.world admin forces the hand of the mods of wolrdnews@lemmy.world community to ban such content and then defederate from the madeupinstance.net where the new luigi community is hosted? Isn’t that the same problem as reddit? Lemmy.world users would not be able to see the luigi community at that point right?
Federation doesn't definitively solve power tripping. It just reduces its impact.
Huge instances like world do undermine that project, so it's up to us lemmizens (lol) to try and stay independent and spread out.
Lemmy world bans !piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
Quite a few people switched to other instances when that happened
You can easily create a new account on a different instance. The only thing you lose is your post/comment history, but many apps allow multiple accounts in case you still want access to that.
What you're worried about is basically what federation was built to stop.
If you don't like the moderation of a community or other aspects, you or anyone else can make a new one on the same or a different instance, if you want.
You can even make it "private" (not federate) to keep others from coming in and recreating the problem you just fled.
You can even make it "private" (not federate) to keep others from coming in and recreating the problem you just fled.
So assuming you don't like to only talk to yourself, how do you decide who to let into a private instance?
And if you stay public, let's say for argument's sake, that the same thing that made you leave this first community immediately happens in the new instance, then what?
I would suggest starting the invite process with the people who were in the community before it went awry. You can also make a post about how you're starting a new community in the old community and explain what will be different in the new community. I belive this happened recently with the "196" community becoming the "oneninetysix" community when the mods made decisions the users didn’t like.
Being mod of the new community would allow for removal of unwanted users. Additionally, if you were admin of the instance, you could block other instances that had users that tended to not match your stance on issues.
Hopefully, that helps.
To be optimistic, I'd hope the federation would be able to guard against deeper centralization like a more extreme .world or .ml, a la meta or whoever. There's always space for grassroots instances, and I'm pretty sure there will always be someone out there running something or with enough interest to learn.
It will still probably end up like email. There will be a working group, public or private, that defines minimum spam requirements. If you don't comply, you'll be defederated.
Except with email, the sender and receive have no choice. With Lemmy, both can pick an instance that isn't relying on whitelist/blacklist rules.
I know people who self host email, so there is a choice.
Being doing it since 2004, when I was still in highschool.
How do manage reputation score with other servers for your outbound mail?
lemmy is part of a horizontally scaling network of instances (servers). if a popular community on an instance goes sideways... say because of a new terrible mod or rule change, the entire population of that community can up and move to a new community in another instance without having to create new accounts anywhere.
this has already happened a few times.
I think the primary defense is the decentralized nature of the application..
Moderators/admins can block and remove content on the instace(s) they control, but this does not impact the content of any other instance.
Effective censorship of the entire ecosystem would require control of many instances and defederation from those that are not deemed appropriate.
There is not really a way for the operator of one instance to control the moderation decisions of the operator(s) of any other instance.
This one of tbe reasons I created !dullsters@dullsters.net I do not have to worry about one instances modderation policy or splitting of users. Sure I could go crazy one day, but I have a robust ruleset in place that the comminity has followed without issue.
It depends which instance you are on. Some instances are full of mods that censor everything that doesn't fit their ideology. Other instances are more relaxed with their moderation approaches. It definitely pays to shop around a bit before you settle on an instance that is a good fit for you.
On dbzero we have a governance community and instance users have the right to vote out mods/admins if they are unpopular. But most instances are run in a much more top-down BDFL (benevolent dictator for life) fashion.
On dbzero we have a governance community and instance users have the right to vote out mods/admins if they are unpopular
Most leftist thing I've ever seen.
Yeah democracy is so leftist
I mean in a sense yes, but that aside voting on your admins is very anarchist.