this post was submitted on 11 Sep 2023
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Privacy concerns are a very popular and valid talking point on Lemmy, so I would like to gather your thoughts and opinions on this. (Apologies if it's already been discussed!)

Would you support this? Would it work or even be viable? (If it could somehow overcome the rabid resistance from these big companies). What are your thoughts?

Personally, I'm getting more and more agitated at the state of this late stage global capitalism, where companies have the gall to ask you to pay or subscribe to their products, while they already make money from you for selling your data. It's been an issue for a long time now, but seems to really be ramping up.

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[–] YoBuckStopsHere@lemmy.world 81 points 1 year ago (10 children)

Only I should be able to rent out my personal data to selected companies and they should pay rent monthly to retain that information. I should have termination rights with a 60 day notice.

[–] deleted@lemmy.world 38 points 1 year ago

Yeah let’s offer them a subscription model.

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[–] grue@lemmy.world 75 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Companies who obtain and sell your user information should be put out of business and have their executives and board go to prison for thousands or millions of counts of stalking.

[–] GBU_28@lemm.ee 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

But you generally literally say "yes, I permit you to use and sell my information"

In instances where that isn't the case, I agree with you, it's stalking.

[–] Daisyifyoudo@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It's far more nuanced than that. What if the company tells you they are collecting and selling your data and even give you a way to opt out, but it's on page 28 of the Terms and Conditions.

It should be law that companies must have a clear and transparent way to communicate data collection and what they do with said data

[–] gelberhut@lemdro.id 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

In EU this law is called GDPR. And it exists.

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[–] ShittyBeatlesFCPres@lemmy.world 57 points 1 year ago (4 children)

Do people here responding with “It’s a free service!” not realize paid services sell your data just as much? The ISP you’re using to read this is selling your data.

And the T&C terms are not anywhere near informed consent. They’re just permission to do anything they want with your data. Quit acting like consumer protection laws aren’t needed as long as someone clicked “I agree” to use a service required for modern life. We all know you can click “Cancel” and go live in the forest. We’d rather a third option besides exploitation and going feral.

Also, quit licking boot. You’re killing the jobs of PR people when you shill for corporations for free.

[–] malloc@lemmy.world 11 points 1 year ago

just take a look at T&Cs and privacy disclaimers for auto manufacturers. Mozilla did an analysis and found all of them just stink. Imagine paying $30K for a brand new car, only to get your information sold by the dealership to shady warranty companies. The auto manufacturer selling out your data in perpetuity and listening to everything. Oh and one auto manufacturer is making claims on your sexual activity LOL

Welcome to the unregulated market of big data in the USA

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[–] LilDestructiveSheep@lemmy.world 51 points 1 year ago (4 children)

It all comes down to one thing:

You agreed to the terms and agreements. You don't have to.

But in general.. imo.. it should be absolutely forbidden to sell data and governments should finally do something and stop sleeping.

[–] marshadow@lemmy.world 21 points 1 year ago (3 children)

I’m an ordinary person with an average level of intelligence, and T&Cs are incomprehensible to me thanks to pretentious language often written in all caps. And it’s not me being unusually stupid

This. Its on a lot of languages like this. The less you understand, the better.

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[–] BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social 12 points 1 year ago (11 children)

The fundamental frustration is that people want to get a thing for free without any cost or inconvenience to them in the slightest.

And like, that's valid - paying for things is annoying - but people generally aren't in the habit of doing things for you for no personal gain. Put another way, it's kinda nuts that, at no direct monetary cost, a person can access a functionally unlimited amount of video and music, can send instantaneous messages to nearly anyone on the planet, can create a personal repository of videos and images and share them with people you know, etc etc. The amount of things you can do in the modern world where the only cost is the mild annoyance of being advertised to is genuinely insane, especially given the massive technical and administrative challenges that come with running a platform like YouTube.

And while I do understand the desire for the option to actually pay money for services instead of data, the sheer fact of the matter is that, given the choice between something costing money and it costing data, 95% of people will choose the free option.

And at the end of the day, most of these things are not actually required to live. Even for services that are functionally necessary today, like email, there are privacy-focused services that provide it. There is simply no world in which a something like Gmail, YouTube, or Instagram exist without bringing in any revenue, because even ignoring the profit required by capitalism, running massive services like that comes with very large costs. The engineers and infrastructure alone cost a fortune, and that fortune has to come from somewhere, whether it be marketing budgets or user fees. We're never going to get services of this nature without paying those costs in one way or another.

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[–] Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social 5 points 1 year ago (4 children)

If I go to google, do a search, and click a link they will be tracking all of that with nary a term or condition in sight.

I believe if you completely new (like after deleting cookies) they will make you agree to the terms and agreements before you can use the service.

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[–] K3zi4@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Totally get this, and the argument that free services can only remain so from selling your data to keep running. But it just seems like such a predatory thing, there was no negotiation in this. It was just inflicted on Internet users within ridiculously lengthy terms and conditions.

I understand the logic of it, but I completely disagree with how we got to this stage. It feels very perverse. And I am in total agreement that something definitely needs to be done- soon.

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[–] malloc@lemmy.world 38 points 1 year ago

Not just in the initial sale, but for every time my data is used.

[–] WhoRoger@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago (2 children)

They shouldn't be able to obtain data beyond what's strictly necessary for the service, never mind sell it.

People don't understand the value of the data, and there's no good way to put a price on it, honestly. As in, no, just because Reddit or whoever can make 5£$€ a year off me, doesn't mean I'd be ok to sell it for 2£$€.

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[–] pissclumps@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago

I don't care about royalties. They should pay a gigantic tax for selling it tho

[–] zik@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago

And I should get to set the price since it's my data in the first place.

[–] Toneswirly@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

yeah honestly the fraction of a cent I'd get negotiated wouldn't make a dent in my life. I'd much rather we as a collective hold companies accountable for selling off our data. Politicians too; they're all trying squeeze us for everything they can, and we consent by being apathetic.

[–] gelberhut@lemdro.id 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (8 children)

Generally, I personally, disagree. Usually companies do not get your data from the air, they provide people service and often for free in exchange. This is a model which made internet available for masses.

What I agree with - a transparency and control, more or less like GDPR suggests (not like it is usually implemented, though).

[–] neptune@dmv.social 6 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Yeah I feel like OP is suggested a world where you pay $5 a month to use Facebook, but you get the premium version for free if you sign off your rights. Maybe not a whole lot would change, except a higher awareness of the business model.

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[–] qooqie@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I agree. I’ve always thought it was weird that companies can sell our personal data including health data without our consent most of the times. And we can’t get any money in return for the value our data generates. If they said, yeah you make $1 couple of hours of you using your phone, I’d probably be a little more keen, but I also value privacy lol

Edit: also just the amount of data collected and how much they can figure out about anyone is fucking terrifying. I like my privacy not because I have something to hide, but because no one would want a stalker who knows everything about you

[–] slazer2au@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

without our consent

Oh, you didn't read our 30 page 8 font legalese terms of service saying we can do what we want with the data we need to collect to provide you with this thing.

I'd put /s but it is not sarcasm. The Mozilla foundation privacy not included and Terms Of Service;Didn't Read have good info as who collects what.

[–] BraveSirZaphod@kbin.social 2 points 1 year ago

While I definitely would like better transparency on data collection practices, I don't think that solves the fundamental frustration that people want to use a costly service without paying anything. The fact of the matter is that I think, for most people at least, if you transparently tell them "We're going to collect a bunch of data in order to serve you targeted advertisements, and in exchange, you get to use Instagram for free", most people will find that to be a fine deal, or at least better than paying money or not using the service at all.

[–] Apollo2323@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 1 year ago

Most of the time they give you a "free" product in return like Gmail or 15GB of "free" space.

[–] Boiglenoight@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago

If you use a company's service without agreeing to pay them with money, you likely agreed to share your information with no strings attached. Problem there being once that's done, your information is liable to be resold ad infinitum with no legal protection for you. What should happen is legislation that federally declares that agreement null and void, and put in its place nationwide law that dictates what companies and citizens can and can't do with intellectual property as it pertains to someone's personal information.

[–] Blackmist@feddit.uk 9 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'd prefer it if they simply weren't allowed to collect it in the first place.

And I don't think it would be viable, because no fucking way am I giving these parasites any banking information so they could pay me a pittance of what they get. They'd fucking sell that too!

It should be a requirement that you can see your own profile at any time, see everything they know about you, be able to edit it (including clearing it, and not with a billion checkboxes either), and lock it to prevent further modification and addition by themselves.

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[–] Steeve@lemmy.ca 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

How much do you think your data is actually worth? Let's take Google for example, their ad revenue in 2022 was ~$224B and they have 4.3B monthly active users. That's only $52 per user, but if you take into account their operating expenses of $208B that drops down to $3.7 per user.

But that's not all, they don't make their revenue by "selling your data", that's a common misconception. They make revenue by selling targeted advertisements on their systems, and targeted advertising is only useful if you actually click the ads and purchase the products.

Now the correlation between your interests might be useful in aggregate, but for a single person this correlation data rounds down to a big fat zero, and since Lemmy users pride themselves in ad blockers and avoiding online advertisements I'm going to say that the value you personally add to Google's revenue is a big fat zero.

So should Google cut you a check for ~$0 per year? Honestly this conversation is a waste of time.

[–] makatwork@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)
[–] glitches_brew@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I wonder what the side effects of this would be.. There would suddenly be incentive for people to shape their lives in ways that would make them more attractive to advertisers, at least on paper.

I wonder if we would see improvementw to society at a macro level if people start making changes to be the types that are paid more for their data.

[–] PiecePractical@midwest.social 3 points 1 year ago

"Bro, we hitting the bar tonight?"

"Hell yeah! I'm three beers away from extra heavy drinker status this month. Let's get that AB-Inbev cash!!"

(Sounds of chest bumping)

[–] Izzy@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

It would be to be a completely mutual agreement where all parties understand all the details and implications. It will probably never happen so it makes way more sense to make data harvesting and selling of user data illegal.

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[–] Granixo 5 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

If they had my consent, then yes, i would agree.

But i would like there to be an option to opt out of sharing my data.

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[–] unodostres@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 year ago
[–] swordsmanluke@programming.dev 4 points 1 year ago

Disagree. Privacy should be the default.

Collecting information should be legal only in so far as it supports the customer's use of a product/service. E.g. It's nice if my doctor can keep a medical history on file, or my mechanic can do the same for my car.

Selling/disclosing information to third parties should be illegal.

[–] paddirn@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (3 children)

It depends, at the very least there should be more transparency about what is being shared with who. But what do you do in situations where they’re providing some sort of “free” service, like Gmail or something? I feel like there’s some sort if trade-off happening there, but we should be fully informed about what is that’s being given about us.

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[–] PaulDevonUK@lemmy.world 2 points 1 year ago

How is value determined? There are many different usage scenarios each of different values.

I would love to receive payment (or the ability to opt out entirely) but imagine that it will be similar to the Holywood scenario where a film makes billions but "accounting" eats 99% of what is due.

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