this post was submitted on 20 Dec 2024
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[–] dx1@lemmy.world 4 points 10 hours ago

Turns out "move fast and break things" doesn't work that well in the auto industry

[–] Lemminary@lemmy.world 14 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

Why does it feel like they recall more cars than they sell?

[–] philodendron@lemdro.id 10 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

AFAIK they’re all just software updates that install automatically

[–] winkerjadams@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 15 hours ago

Not all of them, like the gas pedal rivet.

[–] FilthyShrooms@lemmy.world 17 points 1 day ago

I need one of these but for tesla recalls

[–] SelfProgrammed@lemmy.today 61 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Every time there's a recall, I remember the equation from Fight Club and how the company has to make a decision to recall or absorb the costs. Tesla has had A LOT of recalls mostly with the cyber truck. Musk doesn't seem like the kind of person to be cautious and recall to be on the safe side.

So... What AREN'T they recalling?

[–] atrielienz@lemmy.world 7 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (1 children)

Recalls aren't just something that magically happen. Usually there's an investigation (by the NHTSA, or the company themselves). That investigation concludes that a recall is warranted or necessary and, in the case of voluntary recalls they do a cost to benefit analysis (like how Ford did when the Pinto was a bomb just waiting to be rear ended, and they realized they would save money by not recalling them).

But the NHTSA does force quite a few car manufacturers to do mandatory recalls regardless of whether they want to or not, usually to do with health and safety. You know. To prevent the Ford Pinto scenario.

So it's not so much what they aren't recalling (although I'm sure there's quite a lot). The real question should be, why do they have so many recalls? Why aren't they fixing the problems before they public gets a hold of these vehicles. And it's not just Tesla we should be asking that question of.

[–] GladiusB@lemmy.world 0 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

That sounds like magic to me. To get anything involved with the government not throwing a temper tantrum and make it about themselves.

[–] atrielienz@lemmy.world 1 points 10 hours ago

They do fight. But usually it doesn't end well for them. Usually they drag their feet and waste time hoping that most of the cars will be out of commission before the recall is forced on them or they fight the government over a proposed recall in court and lose. https://apnews.com/article/ford-nhtsa-fine-recall-slow-244e2318b794e2be10196414eba9a029

https://www.dailyjournal.com/articles/376533-tesla-recalls-too-little-too-late

https://www.ttnews.com/articles/volkswagen-appeals-rejected-high-court-allows-emissions-scandal-suits

Right now I know (brother is a tech) that Ford has problems with water pumps but no recalls have been issued. I suspect this is because of the cost to fix them and the fact that these cars are still in warranty, so it's cheaper to have the people in warranty come information service and have it discovered that their water pump is shot than it is to tell them their water pump may be bad because the cooling system is contaminated. It cuts down the number of cars they have to fix significantly. Which is why (yes even if you're not taking your car to a dealership) you should have your car inspected regularly if you aren't going to do it yourself.

[–] AngryCommieKender@lemmy.world 22 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

Tesla may have figured out how SpaceX deals with the muskrat. They basically have a team of people that run interference with tons of busywork they shove in his face when he visits, so that he can't actually do anything.

If Trump's people have half a brain, they will talk to the people that give the British rich and powerful the run around.

[–] paraphrand@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago (2 children)

How is it possible for the Muskrat to not be aware of all this, if we in the public are?

[–] GaMEChld@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

He curates his input and surrounds himself with sycophants to give him the skewed view of reality that he prefers.

[–] Zron@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago (2 children)

You think a billionaire that spends most of his “very busy” schedule tweeting nonsense cares to read the news?

There’s probably a dedicated intern that gives him daily briefings while Musk scrolls twitter for a new Nazi to retweet. The intern knows better than to upset the Muskrat, and keeps news about Tesla issues to a minimum.

[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 3 points 19 hours ago

The intern knows better

I like this sentence.

I think I'm gonna have it printed on a shirt. ;-)

[–] unphazed@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

Tweets and Diablo IV

[–] meco03211@lemmy.world 8 points 1 day ago

For this kind of recall, the expense can be insanely low. It's just a software update that can be done over the air. Something that would warrant a recall is the type of thing they would fix for future builds. So they already put money into it to update the software for future builds. Just pushing it to older builds is simple. Ergo the part of the formula for "the cost of doing the recall" is, as previously mentioned, insanely low. This makes it very easy to have that cost be lower than the amount to settle out of court.

[–] ExcessShiv@lemmy.dbzer0.com 84 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (5 children)

the automaker said it’s providing a free software update to fix the problem.

I know it has to be called a recall, but they really should find another name for these things now that OTA SW updates for issues are a thing, not only for Tesla but also other manufacturers.

[–] ascense@lemm.ee 2 points 16 hours ago

Seems to me just specifying that it's a software recall would be a good balance.

[–] tempest@lemmy.ca 81 points 1 day ago (3 children)

Nah I like the term recall. Just because the fix is "easy" doesn't mean the product wasn't broken. Automakers should take the software in their cars seriously especially the ones that market their cars like a cell phone.

[–] ForgotAboutDre@lemmy.world 29 points 1 day ago

Broken software shouldn’t be accepted as much as it is. Especially in safety critical systems like cars, especially when they remove manual controls for things like steering, brakes, hand brakes and door handles. Fly/drive by wire is more dangerous when the software is unreliable. Mechanical linkages fail immediately or take a long time. Bad software fails in uncertain and potentially chaotic ways.

[–] Petter1@lemm.ee 1 points 19 hours ago

But recall meaning you call the products back, so they can be fixed, or not? This seems not the case here, just a safety relevant bugfix..

[–] ExcessShiv@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (3 children)

I just think it's useful to have different words for things that can be easily fixed without having to go get the car to a mechanic and having no immediate safety impact, and things that may require you to take the vehicle to a mechanic ASAP because there is immediate serious danger. They should not be in the same category, and people should be aware that they require different levels of attention and urgency. When it's all just referred to as a "recall", people will start to not take them seriously when they more often than not are minor things like this.

[–] Nougat@fedia.io 8 points 1 day ago (6 children)

I think a "recall" has a very specific legal definition, where the manufacturer has strictly defined responsibilities (identifying and notifying owners of affected vehicles would be one of those). It wouldn't surprise me if there was some external agency that acted as an auditor on that.

On the other hand, manufacturers can put out a "service action" bulletin, where a particular repair is free to the vehicle owner, but none of those recall responsibilities are in place. This means that, for example, vehicle owners are not notified, so you just need to bring your vehicle in with the complaint specified in the service action. In this case, the vehicle owner might need to point out that there's a service action, because a shady dealer will pretend it doesn't exist, charge you for the repair, and also submit the repair to the manufacturer for reimbursement. This was a lot easier to do before the internet, since the information about that service action wasn't readily available to the public.

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[–] kameecoding@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It's not useful at all, knowing which brand sells shitty cars that have major issues is a good thing, this whole attitude that you can do OTA fix something therefore it's fine and we can ship bad product is fucking ridiculous attitude to a multi-ton weapon capable of killing multiple people

[–] ForgotAboutDre@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago

It’s worse than that, people will argue shipping good code is impossible. Good testing is hard, so it’s avoided for things like unit tests. Something that’s only equivalent to basic QA in manufacturing. Every software functions is a design change and the system needs to be fully validated and tested. That’s means driving the car, and not shipping the code and using the users cars to prove your design.

[–] Soup@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

The problem is, and of course when it matters I forget the specifics, that there are many times when language is changed to soften how bad something is and it results in people not taking things seriously.

The issue here is cars being shipped in a broken state, that’s it. They recall the vehicles and force people to skip out of work or whatever to get this shit done because their products suck, and if they wanted to not deal with that then maybe they should products that don’t suck. They can also collect a bunch of these issues, seeing as they’re common, and either make a patch of several minor issues or just say that the problem will be addressed at the next service. This is entirely on the companies to save their image, not us to change our language to make them feel better.

[–] mrnarwall@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago

As a software engineer, I would think to call this a patch or a hotfix. I agree that recall for this type of situation is a bit too dramatic, but I'd also say that patch or hotfix are too casual sounding

[–] SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today 1 points 1 day ago (4 children)

Yes absolutely. The term recall is supposed to be when they literally recall the cars, like bring them back in, in the same context as you recall your dog after he runs around the yard.
No cars are being brought back in. No dealers are involved here. It's just a bug fix for the next software release.

I also don't like how the ability to fix bugs is creating a huge number of 'recalls'. For example, last year Tesla had a 'recall' because NHTSA decided the warning icons on the dashboard screen weren't big enough. Like the icons for parking brake and seat belt. Which is frustrating because the car is operated for years with the original icons and nobody had a complaint.

But if this was an old style car, where those were individual LEDs silkscreened in an instrument cluster, that would never be a recall because it would cost millions to replace every single instrument cluster on every single car. But because it is remotely fixable, it becomes a recall.

[–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 2 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

They applied that font/icon change in Canada as well, and then Canada made them undo the change that NHSTA demanded. Double recall lol.

[–] SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today 0 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

Which IMHO just shows that the recall in the first place was just NHTSA unnecessarily flexing on them

[–] NotMyOldRedditName@lemmy.world 2 points 9 hours ago

Well, I think rules are rules, and they do differ country to country, but this whole recall for something like that is what the problem is.

Bu nothing geneartes headlines like Tesla recalls every vehicle made in NA.

[–] atrielienz@lemmy.world 2 points 20 hours ago (1 children)

You would absolutely take your vehicle in for service for a safety recall if the OTA didn't work. Which happens frequently enough that it still warrants being called a recall and the necessary steps once the vehicles are "recalled" in order to notify customers who might not otherwise set themselves up to get an OTA. It's not as simple as the car "just does it overnight" in every case.

[–] SirEDCaLot@lemmy.today 0 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

Frequent software updates are part of having a Tesla. If the vehicle is unable to do a software update, then it is broken and would require service regardless of the recall.

[–] atrielienz@lemmy.world 0 points 10 hours ago

My dude, the vehicle could be working fine but you could live somewhere with no broadband and poor 4G connection and not be able to receive the update. Don't assume that you just know how everyone who owns one of these cars lives their life because that's not helpful to the conversation, and it's not how the government functions. The government has to assume that if a recall for safety or security is being issued that people may not be able to receive that OTA over the air and may be required to go to a service center for it instead.

Almost all new cars have OTA software updates. If one of them breaks something and then the car can't get further updates, what then? You've never had a software update mess with your computer? Are you for real right now?

[–] ForgotAboutDre@lemmy.world 7 points 1 day ago (1 children)

They sold a bad product that needs fixed, bad software shouldn’t get an exception. The warning icons were probably not compliant and should never have left the factory.

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[–] Serinus@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Guys, rail against the things that are true. There are enough of them that we don't need to exaggerate or make up new ones.

Regardless of what you think of Tesla, "recall" here doesn't mean what people expect it to mean.

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[–] firepenny@lemmy.world 15 points 1 day ago (2 children)

I'm still not sure why people buy this pos strapped to wheels? The quality is sub par at best.

[–] atrielienz@lemmy.world 3 points 21 hours ago

Cool factor I think. Tech enthusiasts who wanted a car full of tech. The funny thing is automotive is having a tough time building quality vehicles recently across the board. The pandemic only seems to have exacerbated the problem but the trend is that even experienced car manufacturers are having recalls up the whazoo.

[–] john89@lemmy.ca 1 points 18 hours ago

Affluent people like novelty.

[–] solsangraal@lemmy.zip 13 points 1 day ago

at least they look stupid as all fuck

[–] tk1ll3r@discuss.tchncs.de 10 points 1 day ago (1 children)

If Elon's DOGE department is as efficient and top-notch in terms of quality, I think the US is on its way to golden times. amirite

[–] john89@lemmy.ca 3 points 18 hours ago

The man who conned a generation.

[–] NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Why the cybertruck picture? They aren't trying to say that there were already 700.000 crappy tin boxes in the wild, or are they? 😉

[–] kamenlady@lemmy.world 4 points 1 day ago (1 children)

The article isn't really clear, it doesn't exactly name the vehicles affected. But only mentions & shows the cybertruck.

[–] anarchrist@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 1 day ago

Gotta isolate the bad press to the obvious turd even though I bet they all have a similar system with similar flaws

[–] OpenHammer6677@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago
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