this post was submitted on 18 Oct 2024
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China's increasing passport controls evoke Mao era. (www.voanews.com)
submitted 3 weeks ago by Dot@feddit.org to c/world@lemmy.world
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[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 11 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

The Chinese government has been acting to restrict travel outside the country by ordering some teachers, civil servants and executives of state-owned enterprises to hand in their passports.

...and...

Hong said the CCP is also worried that as people's confidence in the economy slows, they will become less loyal to Xi's regime and China’s system, and that personnel and capital will flee the country.

Won't this action by the CCP actually accelerate the rate at which people leave? If they currently have a passport and are seeing people they know get their passports seized, those still with passports might choose to leave now while they still can even if they hadn't considered it before.

[–] RagingHungryPanda@lemm.ee 3 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

You'd think, but maybe not. One thing that China does is it's really strict on not letting people bring money out of the country. I have friends that have money back home that they can't get out of the country.

The main reason for that is that when the gov't opens that up, billions start flowing out of the country really fast. So, if you leave, you're leaving your money behind.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

You're referring to capital controls, and yes, China has strict controls on how much money you can move out of the country. I'm referring to people themselves. If you have a valid passport right now, you can still get yourself out legally. Most of your money may have to stay behind, but that could be worth it for many situations.

[–] InverseParallax@lemmy.world 0 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

The problem is: People know if they leave, their money will probably be taken.

They're gambling with their lives, but that's a fair gamble for the stakes.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

The problem is: People know if they leave, their money will probably be taken.

The old adage applies: "Your money or your life"

Depending on what they think their future holds, leaving all their money behind may be a very very small price to pay.

[–] InverseParallax@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (1 children)

I disagree, their parents went through so much worse and they saw China rise, the belief is if they can stick through just a little they might find a new opportunity, or maybe things will just work out.

Also they don't think things are magically better elsewhere, so maybe it's just that.

For us the price might not make sense, but I understand if it does to them at least.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I disagree

I'm not sure what you say you're disagreeing with.

I'm saying a portion of the population with still valid passports may choose to leave because of these new restrictions. Are you disagreeing and saying "not a single person with a valid passport will choose to leave China forever"?

[–] InverseParallax@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Fine, I'm suggesting most people would choose their money over their lives right now, though that might change over time.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Fine, I’m suggesting most people would choose their money over their lives right now, though that might change over time.

I agree with you on this. My point at the beginning of this thread was the group of folks choosing their money over their lives is now getting smaller now that it looks like they may not have the chance the make the choice again at a later date (when their passport is seized).

[–] InverseParallax@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

While I would agree here, I think they will still choose their money right now.

The richest will definitely consider leaving, but I think the choice between life and money right now still leans toward money unless you can feel safe getting money out.

There have been high-profile people losing that bet, but my exposure suggests the frogs haven't yet reached the jump point, though there is a lot of fidgeting.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

The richest will definitely consider leaving, but I think the choice between life and money right now still leans toward money unless you can feel safe getting money out.

The data doesn't back your idea. Since 1950 (the beginning of this dataset) China has had a negative Net Migration rate. More people have chosen to leave China even accounting for others that choose to come to China.

source

About 310,000 more people per year leave China than come. source

[–] InverseParallax@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

The data doesn’t back your idea. Since 1950 (the beginning of this dataset) China has had a negative Net Migration rate. More people have chosen to leave China even accounting for others that choose to come to China.

I'd like to believe that, anecdotally I've seen a number of engineers head back because they felt they could leverage their skills where they were the one-eyed in the land of the blind.

You really should want to leave though, Xi is not subtle in his desire to control all aspects of Chinese life.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I’d like to believe that, anecdotally I’ve seen a number of engineers head back because they felt they could leverage their skills where they were the one-eyed in the land of the blind.

I agree with you. I don't think those engineers are wrong that they will likely do well as the CCP has a big push to develop domestic research married to its strong domestic manufacturing.

You really should want to leave though, Xi is not subtle in his desire to control all aspects of Chinese life.

This is the part that confuses me about those engineers actions. Jack Ma was one of those engineers at one point. If you're too successful, bad things happen to you. So what does that mean for the engineers that are going back? Do they perhaps see themselves reaching upper middle class status, then stopping career growth? Do they not see that even being rich in China doesn't give you the right to express your opinion?

[–] InverseParallax@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago

You nailed it, but the engineers are very much at a "reign in hell vs serve in heaven" point right now because the CCP is promising everything.

But also, most of those engineers aren't the good ones, they often don't value the freedoms we have here, they just want a safe and comfortable lifestyle for themselves and their kids, which seems reasonable right now.

I think there's a ... "hive safety reflex" if that makes sense? They feel safer in China than in the west right now, especially as the world is de-globalizing, and they fear being left in a potentially hostile land, which is one of the narratives the CCP is using to counter fears of its own tyranny.

[–] socsa@piefed.social 3 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

You can move it $10k at a time. It just takes a while if you have a lot to move.

This is also partially why buying real estate in the West is so popular. Paying a mortgage is a very easy way to move money off shore without the same level of scrutiny.

[–] HootinNHollerin@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

And that further drives up housing prices for us from the west. Especially California. China doesn’t let foreigners buy property so why do we let them while we’re not able to afford a house?

[–] cocomutative_diagram@infosec.pub 1 points 3 weeks ago (2 children)

Because of the language barrier, people typically needs years of preparation to leave the country. Imagine finding a H1B job with zero connection in the U.S. and subpar English, that is literally impossible.

Even said person are willing to pay the high tuition fee in U.S. or Europe, it would take a Chinese at least a year of intense language learning to achieve reasonable fluency in a language, that is acceptable in universities.

Not to mention, leaving China also means leaving everything they know behind, friends, family, way of life, and especially money, like the other post suggests.

In fact, confiscating public workers' passport has been practiced for at least a decade; partly for control, partly for security. And that did not spark mass exodus, slightly expanding the program likely will not change much as well.

Finally, most people in China choose public work for job security, hence they are usually averse to change. These crowds are the least likely to react to policies like this.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Because of the language barrier, people typically needs years of preparation to leave the country.

English is being taught as early as Kindergarten in China. source

"English is a required subject in China, and most students are taught their first lesson in the third grade, while others even start during kindergarten. Most reputable jobs ask for proof of English proficiency. A college English test certificate is acceptable."

So I would imagine most folks considering this aren't starting from zero with English skills.

Imagine finding a H1B job with zero connection in the U.S. and subpar English, that is literally impossible.

While the USA is a place many aspire to emigrate to, its not nearly the only country in the world. Here's a slightly older statistic:

"This statistic shows the number of immigrants from China into Canada from 2007 to 2017. In 2017, Canada received approximately 30 thousand immigrants from China, over 3,000 people more than in the previous year."

source

Not to mention, leaving China also means leaving everything they know behind, friends, family, way of life, and especially money, like the other post suggests.

Besides the money point, this is true of any emigration, yet millions do it from countries around the world. I'm in the USA, but if I saw the United States government revoking passports of its citizens arbitrarily I'd start considering emigrating myself. So far the only reason (besides actual crimes) is revocation for large sums of unpaid taxes, and even that list of people is pretty small.

In fact, confiscating public workers’ passport has been practiced for at least a decade; partly for control, partly for security. And that did not spark mass exodus, slightly expanding the program likely will not change much as well.

Citation needed. Are you saying the CCP has been revoking passports at this new scale and against the same targets for the same reasons for at least a decade?

[–] cocomutative_diagram@infosec.pub 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Thank you, many of your point is very valid, I might not have made every point in my original comments sufficiently clear.

So I would imagine most folks considering this aren't starting from zero with English skills.

As most language learner might know, professional fluency is far from "not zero". I have near perfect mark in English for my high school entrance exam in China.

Yet, I spent almost all of my three years of high school to learn English, to be accepted by a U.S. college. And I only started writing decent professional English couple years after I graduated.

I am certainly not the most talented language learner, but I believe achieve fluent professional English not a goal that can be easily achieved in a year, especially with a 9-5 job.

Besides the money point, this is true of any emigration, yet millions do it from countries around the world.

You are right, this is also why a large majority of person do not immigrate. I am certainly not suggesting people do not immigrate. I just think that there are many realistic barrier to immigration, to Chinese and to people from other countries as well.

Many people vowed to immigrate if Trump is elected in 2016, yet many failed to do so. I imagine the real barrier to immigration might play a role in these decisions.

Are you saying the CCP has been revoking passports at this new scale and against the same targets for the same reasons for at least a decade?

No, I am saying public worker needing to submit passport is not new. Here are some Chinese source:

I am not saying that they are not expanding the scale of the program.

[–] partial_accumen@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago

As most language learner might know, professional fluency is far from “not zero”. I have near perfect mark in English for my high school entrance exam in China.

我懂了. 我学习中文一年可是我的中文还没好.

No, I am saying public worker needing to submit passport is not new. Here are some Chinese source:

I am not saying that they are not expanding the scale of the program.

This is good information, thank you for sharing that. I also appreciate you bringing your personal experience to this conversation. You are living firsthand the topic, and brought that valuable perspective. 谢谢!

[–] socsa@piefed.social 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

English was mandatory in primary school for decades. It is only very recently that may not be true, but every single Chinese person with a university degree is at least proficient in English.

[–] cocomutative_diagram@infosec.pub 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I certainly didn't have proficient english after I graduated college 🥲...

[–] socsa@piefed.social 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

You write nearly perfect English. Perhaps you have improved since then, but minimum proficiency is conversational plus some travel vocab.

My experience is mostly with students from Tsinghua, Fudan, etc, so maybe I am off the mark, but my experience is that Chinese generally have good English language skills. I wish my Chinese was half as good.

[–] RagingHungryPanda@lemm.ee 7 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago) (2 children)

Also, this is an account that's 1 day old with 64 posts on news articles and doesn't appear to be marked as a bot.

[–] angrystego@lemmy.world 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I would like to point out that while the account is not marked as a bot, it IS marked as a Dot.

[–] RagingHungryPanda@lemm.ee 1 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I'm not familiar with that term. What does that mean?

[–] angrystego@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago* (last edited 3 weeks ago)

Check OP's username ;)

[–] MediaBiasFactChecker@lemmy.world -2 points 3 weeks ago

Voice of America - News Source Context (Click to view Full Report)Information for Voice of America:

MBFC: Least Biased - Credibility: High - Factual Reporting: High - United States of America
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