this post was submitted on 25 Aug 2024

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CEO of Telegram messaging app arrested in France, say French media (www.voanews.com)

submitted 4 months ago by True@lemy.lol to c/technology@lemmy.ml

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[–] finley@lemm.ee 53 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (3 children)

the article doesn't explain what laws he's accused of breaking. i'm not defending the person-- i find the lack of detail to be a bit odd.

[+] True@lemy.lol 32 points 4 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago) (4 children)

[deleted]

[–] NoForwardslashS@sopuli.xyz 40 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Now we are detaining CEOs for potential criminal activity on their platforms, I expect to see many other CEOs behind bars before the end of the weekend

[–] Kalkaline@leminal.space 16 points 4 months ago

I imagine every platform has crime happening on it.

[–] ampersandcastles@lemmy.ml 2 points 4 months ago

Probably only ones the NSA can't backdoor.

[–] hoshikarakitaridia@lemmy.world 22 points 4 months ago (1 children)

I don't like that at all.

Hate on billionaires all you want, but a platform like this shouldn't be forced to moderate. It runs completely counter to the USP of the app. It's encrypted anonymous communication capabilities.

[–] elvith@feddit.org 10 points 4 months ago (2 children)

It's encrypted anonymous communication capabilities.

Unless you enable it for every single chat (and IIRC only available for chats with only two persons, not group chats) there's no encryption. Or did they change that? The only encryption that applies to most chats on that platform should be transport encryption via TLS.

[–] federalreverse@feddit.org 5 points 4 months ago

Or did they change that?

[–] fushuan@lemm.ee 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

That's not correct. There's user to server encryption, just not e2e. It's less secure, sure, but given that they want to arrest the CEO over his compromise on keeping that actually private, it seems trustworthy enough, and has been over the years.

[–] balsoft@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

There’s user to server encryption, just not e2e.

That's exactly what the comment said: The only encryption that applies to most chats on that platform should be transport encryption via TLS. It's about the same level of encryption as Lemmy PMs.

The fact that Telegram doesn't cooperate with French authorities doesn't mean that it doesn't cooperate with other authorities or sell your data to the highest bidder. They have all the technical means for it.

Don't use a regular Telegram chat if your life depends on the messages being private. Use XMPP, Matrix with E2EE, or at the very least Signal. Heck, even WhatsApp is (reportedly) better, as it claims to provide E2EE and that's been checked by some security professionals who have been given access to the source code. If you absolutely must use Telegram for something like that, only use secret chats.

[–] rdri@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

That's not correct. Toy may call it TLS but it's a custom protocol. Data is not kept unencrypted on their servers, according to their docs.

[–] balsoft@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Toy may call it TLS but it’s a custom protocol.

Sure, it's mtproto. The security it provides for non-encrypted chats (which are the absolute majority of chats) is not any different from just having TLS for transport. It's potentially even worse as it's not as well-audited.

Data is not kept unencrypted on their servers, according to their docs.

That just means that they store both your data in some encrypted way and the key. They can still read it trivially. You don't even have to know the protocol to understand why: you can add new devices without having any other device online, and read all non-secret chats. It might also just mean disk encryption, in which case it's plain-text in RAM while the server is running.

[–] rdri@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

is not any different from just having TLS for transport

Yes, in simple terms, all encrypted transfer protocols are similarly protected from mitm attacks.

That just means that they store both your data in some encrypted way and the key. They can still read it trivially.

They can and they said the decryption keys are always kept separately (there are probably more layers than I can describe) from the data to make sure the servers are not used to decrypt the data locally. They can be lying for all I care. The bigger problem is that people somehow assume this a huge threat, while all previous cases didn't involve anything like that. People are getting into trouble for their public content - protected by some encryption but visible to anyone interested (who then report it to oppressive authorities).

While some go extra mile to explain to you how you should use e2e for your family group chats, real criminals do their stuff everywhere (especially on telegram) for years, staying safe. Problem is not how weak or strong the encryption is, but that once you are under oppression and do opposition activities, you're going to learn by yourself how to deal with it. Signal will not save you from people in your group chats if they are there to report on you.

[–] balsoft@lemmy.ml 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

Problem is not how weak or strong the encryption is

Here it's definitely part of discussion. The context was

It’s encrypted anonymous communication capabilities.

It's barely anonymous, and poorly encrypted. The latter is the reason Durov is in custody while Signal devs are scott free. He could easily turn illegal stuff over to French authorities, but doesn't.

The bigger problem is that people somehow assume this a huge threat, while all previous cases didn’t involve anything like that.

There have absolutely been cases where a backdoor/weakness/lack of encryption used to catch criminals before: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Trojan_Shield https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ennetcom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EncroChat . I distinctly remember that there were also arrests of opposition activists in Russia based on personal messages in VKontakte, but can't find the news right now.

real criminals do their stuff everywhere (especially on telegram) for years, staying safe.

Some are staying safe, others are being caught precisely because of this.

Problem is not how weak or strong the encryption is, but that once you are under oppression and do opposition activities, you’re going to learn by yourself how to deal with it.

Using better encryption schemes is definitely part of that.

[–] rdri@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago

It's barely anonymous, and poorly encrypted. The latter is the reason Durov is in custody

There is no logic here. If it was poor it would be very easy to track anyone including criminals. You can check the news to find the reasons.

There have absolutely been cases where a backdoor/weakness/lack of encryption used to catch criminals before

I meant telegram related cases.

Some are staying safe, others are being caught precisely because of this.

I didn't see any proofs of that.

Using better encryption schemes is definitely part of that.

Part of what? I don't get the point here.

[–] EleventhHour@lemmy.world 12 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I see, perhaps I’m just unfamiliar with the criminal justice system in France

In the United States, this would not be considered an arrest, but an investigative detention (a minor but important distinction)

[–] finley@lemm.ee 0 points 4 months ago

Oh, that makes sense

[–] krimson@lemmy.world 10 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Telegram never or rarely cooperates with authorities in investigations into terrorism, child abuse, drug trafficking, weapons marketplaces, etc. This is probably the main reason they arrested the guy.

[–] ampersandcastles@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 months ago (2 children)

Probably because they can't? It's encrypted, yeah?

Signal posts their subpoenas and responses that are usually like, 'you fucking dolt, it's encrypted, we don't have access'

[–] krimson@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago

They probably still have usernames, phone numbers and access logs with IP adresses even though the chats are encrypted.

[–] balsoft@lemmy.ml 1 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Telegram is categorically less encrypted than Signal for most chats. It's mostly the same level of security as Facebook Messenger, Instagram DMs, even Email (SMTP/IMAP over TLS) or SMS: it only encrypts communications between the client and the server. Telegram can read everything you send in regular chats. The only way to get end-to-end encryption (such that Telegram technically can't access your communication) is by starting a fussy and inconvenient "secret chat". It can only be done between two people (so no E2E group chats at all), only when both are online at the same time, and it only works on the devices on which the secret chat was initiated and accepted; in other words, as a frequent user I've only used it once for some really sensitive personal information. Even then Telegram still has access to a lot of metadata about messages: phone numbers of both parties, when the messages are sent, how big they are, etc.

I'm not saying that cooperating with intelligence/LE agencies is always an ethical, or even a good choice, but Telegram demonstrably had the ability to do so.

[–] Vendetta9076@sh.itjust.works 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

They view him as complicit in every single crime that has ever been linked to telegram

[–] doodledup@lemmy.world 3 points 4 months ago

Dumbass didn't encrypt the chats and didn't do moderation according to local laws. If Facebook did the same as his company did, Mark Zuckerberg would share his fate.

[–] EonNShadow@pawb.social 15 points 4 months ago (3 children)

The furry community is in absolute shambles

[–] itsgroundhogdayagain@lemmy.ml 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

They will always have Bluesky to fall back on

[–] JimmyBigSausage@lemm.ee 2 points 4 months ago

And Lemmy!!

[–] 30p87@feddit.org 0 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (2 children)

Why tho? What makes Telegram even remotely attractive? It has less security for groups than other messengers that have even more features, and the PMs are also unencrypted by default. Telegram itself is just a stupid concept. In my mind, only the right/conservative furries are on Telegram, as that and criminals are Telegrams only clients.

[–] EonNShadow@pawb.social 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

This is actually an insane take

Furries at large don't care about the e2ee or security features

They care that:

their friends are the platform
custom stickers of their fursonas are easy to make and import

That's basically it. Telegram has become entirely ubiquitous in the fandom. No one group/ideology claims it as their own.

Sincerely,

a progressive leftist furry who uses TG

[–] mamotromico@lemmy.ml 2 points 4 months ago

People underestimate how powerful stickers are to the average person

I still miss the days of MSNPlus where I could add text shortcuts to display reaction images/gifs

[–] scorp@lemmy.ml 2 points 4 months ago

you got consumed by the brainrot

[–] mindbleach@sh.itjust.works -1 points 4 months ago

Mods are asleep, post... as before.

[–] Glitch@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 points 4 months ago

Yeah they would say that

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 0 points 4 months ago

welcome to the free world

[–] ampersandcastles@lemmy.ml -2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

"and the republics of the former Soviet Union"

Wow, what a propaganda site considering the Soviet Union hasn't existed since 91.