Framework laptops are getting better. Not Apple levels good, but it certainly beats them in average longevity.
The only hope with Apple is having the EU step in again to stop this kind of bullcrap.
this post was submitted on 13 Aug 2023
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I love the idea of Framework and I want to get one, but the price is multiple times of what I paid for my current machine... and this is better than the Framework in several ways. I'm hoping that a few of the Frameworks make it onto the second hand market and I'll buy one there. The idea of a laptop that's easy to replace and lasts forever is brilliant though, and I hope they take off.
What did you get and for how much? To me it seems the framework (at least the 16) is only a bit (100-200 out of 1600) more expensive than laptops with similar specs.
I paid approx $700 for a i5 with a Geforce 3050 and a 144hz screen. The RAM was weak but it was upgrade able so I got it up to 40GB, about $800 all up. It's an MSI.
The only downside is that it's such a pain to take apart and it's put together in a way where there's a very real chance of doing permanent damage when taking off the cover, since the case actually wraps around the ports and makes the motherboard bend when you apply any pressure to it. It came with 8GB of RAM out of the box, so basically unusable without the upgrade; still, I'm very happy with it atm.
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ThinkPads are far superior than MacBooks for longevity, user repairability, durability, keyboard and thermals. Also Linux compatibility is highest alongside System76, Framework, Tuxedo and others.
Not that I’m advocating for Apple’s inexcusable behaviour, but as someone who’s worked in IT managing fleets of hundreds of Thinkpads (among others like Apple, Dell, Acer, HP), respectfully, they are far less reliable and durable than a MacBook. The only devices I had with higher failure rates than ThinkPads were Acer laptops.
They are certainly more repairable, but so are others like Dell and HP. Lenovo were one of the earlier manufacturers to pull some anti-repair moves such as soldering memory to the mainboard (on the Yoga models).
I think your statement is far more accurate in the days when IBM owned the ThinkPad brand, but unfortunately Lenovo have run it into the ground as far as quality goes.
All that said, I certainly hope we see more projects like Framework so that these big manufacturers can get some sort of reality check.
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ThinkPads are far superior than MacBooks for longevity
Not sure that's true. I have a pretty top-of-the-line ThinkPad (3 years old) and it started falling apart after like a year of regular use. Maybe years ago that was true but nowadays I feel like everybody except maybe Apple has crap build quality.
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This is the opinion of someone who has not used a Thinkpad nor a MacBook built within the past three years.
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I would love a Framework laptop, but my current laptop (a Dell XPS 15 from 2017) is still going strong. Buying a new repairable laptop defeats the whole sustainable thing if there's nothing wrong with my current one. I've done 2 fixes to my current laptop: Replaced the speakers that had died, and added thermal pads to the VRMs to fix an overheating / throttling issue. Even the battery is fine still.
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another example of why apple laptops are so expensive.
80% of the price is to cover the R&D for fucking over the consumer.
Seriously, tying the goddamn *hall effect sensor to the system so it cant be replaced? Thats some freaking cyberpunk level corpo shitbaggery.
Apple is making really good hardware but we should stop buying it because of what they are doing against repairabality or because of the fact that they trying to capture you in their ecosystem.
I have a MBP 2015 and I love all the integrations with other stuff like my iPhone and Apple Watch, but every time I see a convenience feature like "Scan from iPhone" I just stop for a second and think "Imagine that was an open source, documented API that any developer could both hook into and implement into something like Windows or Linux."
Apple is so good at making everything just work when everything is Apple. Truly, I think if this problem was solved for PC users, it would take away from Apple's market share
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They've significantly overcharged for their products for the past 20 years. If you can't get people to give a fuck about the bottom line, good luck getting them to care about anything else
I'm going to put this out there as just an idea, don't buy apple products.
They're shit they've always been shit and they've never been financially worth buying.
I just got an M2 MBP. In my personal experience it is very much not "shit".
Expensive and a PITA to fix? Quite possibly.
+1 apple products are very much not shit. Otherwise people wouldnt buy and use them as prolifically as they do.
I started using Macbooks because the user experience on windows laptops sucks in comparison.
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They are a lifestyle brand and play on that to keep people trapped. People who buy Apple like the aesthetic of appearing wealthy. It's classism through consumerism, even if the consumers don't realise it.
Apple's terrible privacy policy (yes, despite the word privacy appearing in the ads), atrocious right to repair stance, and aggressive software lock-in tactics should put any person who cares about those things off.
There was a purpose to buying Apple when they were the only player in the specific niche. Audio engineering is a great example of this. In the 90's, Apple were really the only valid choice in a highly specialist field. Microsoft caught up in the 2000s, with Linux not too far behind in the 2010's.
So nowadays, the limitations are effectively self-imposed. You can spend whatever money you want on a setup that will do whatever you need and the OS is a personal preference.
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All of their products are anti consumer and they have been for years. I don't understand why people still buy their products
Because I love the platform. I've been a Mac user for decades. People harp on marketing making us foam at the mouth for these products, but I genuinely love them. I also hate some decisions, but the time to switch platforms is not today or in the foreseeable future.
Yes, Linux would let me do most of what I want to do. But I appreciate the design of indie Mac apps. They're far beyond the polish of apps on Linux and Windows.
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They're great work laptops, as long as you treat them as basically disposable. If I have a problem, just turn it into IT and grab another, pull down the repos and I'm off. Wouldn't buy one with my own money, though.
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I just recently had a 2020 gen MacBook pro die on me. When I took it to the genius bar, they said that it was a power issue that they couldn't repair unless they changed the whole logic board which would cost me $500 and without the ability to recover the data on the soldered SSD. What's worse is that they sent me to a 3rd party data recovery company to recover my data for $1200. I ended up declining the data recovery and just accepted that my data is gone and bought a thinkpad to replace the laptop.
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So, genuine question.
What other laptops are there with comparable screens? Colour gamut, accuracy and all the good stuff Apple does so well.
Some day I might need something to work with on the go, and I need a good display.
Edit: Well, didn't expect so many answers in as little time, thank you
Asus OLED laptop screens are as good (or better depending on what your criteria are). If you do print, they are Pantone Validated.
I've been using a Lenovo Yoga Pro 9i (or Slim Pro 9i if you're in the US) for around half a year now and have been loving it so far. 14" MiniLED screen, 100% DCI-P3, can get really bright, has a touch screen (if that's something you like) and a 165 Hz refresh rate. Can't speak for the color accuracy though.
I got the i9 variant with 32GB RAM and an RTX 4060 GPU during a "Mega Power" sale and with an additional 10% off as a Student for just over 2000€, but even the normal price is "only" (compared to your MacBooks and XPSs) around 2500€ iirc.
RAM is sadly soldered onto the motherboard but at least you get 6400MHz for it. Storage is upgradeable.
Connectivity is great (2x USB-C with PD3.1 for 140W charging, one also supporting Thunderbolt 4, HDMI, full-size SD Card reader, 2x USB-A...)
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They bring a sex doll to their meetings and spend hours trying to figure out the best way to fuck consumers.
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It's so annoying. I want to love Apple, heck I've been there and HAD Apple everything. They have a great *nix OS, well polished ecosystem, very good security and privacy practices... but hostility towards repair, along with planned obsolescence, ended up turning me off. One aspect is sustainability. Repair is more sustainable than recycle. They have good recycling credentials but that should be last resort.
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Awesome!
Always like people that fight for right to repair!
Anyone know if Louis Rossman and these and other people have done collabs or something similar?
Louis Anthony Rossmann (born November 19, 1988) [2] [3] is an American independent repair technician, YouTuber, and right to repair activist. He is the owner and operator of Rossmann Repair Group in Austin, Texas (formerly New York City ), a computer repair shop established in 2007 which specializes in logic board-level repair of MacBooks.
As someone who generally makes a point to buy laptops with as much upgradeability as possible, I ended up going with an M1 Pro then M2 Max MBP.
I really don't like how much Apple charges for RAM and storage and that I'm stuck with 32GB and 1TB until I buy an entire new laptop, but I just can't ignore how ridiculously powerful and efficient Apple Silicon is for programming, compiling, and even limited gaming.
It also helps that it's made of metal, unlike most PC laptops at similar prices. I've always had terrible luck with plastic bodies: broken hinges, broken traces on the motherboard from excessive flexing, etc.
In my fantasy utopia, Apple would have slots for adding extra storage and "slow" RAM to all its computers, but that's not happening.
I have a 2011 MacBook Air and it isn't supported anymore but I've put Fedora Linux on it. It's snappy and the track pad is still fantastic.
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I'm a big believer in self-repair. And right to repair. I buy framework laptops. Because I believe.
I just can't deny however that Apple MacBooks last forever. I personally have a MacBook that still working after 9 years. Right to repair has less meaning when the laptop lasts a decade.
So my current recommendation to people is get a MacBook Air, but if they're technical, then I recommend a framework
"last forever" is an overstatement, the lastest macOS only supports device until 2017: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213264 ; That is only 6 years old, that is around the phone support period around a later pixel phone, which is not even a company that focus on sustainability.
Although you can probably throw linux on it to extend its life, but I dont know if it is as easy as install it on a normal laptop.
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yea this is why i couldnt care less about apple silicon. atleast with AMD/Intel and most ARM CPUs/SOCs you have the flexibility to do whatever you want. With AS you are limited to whatever shit Apple provides.
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I really dislike Apple's business practices. I remember replacing a screen on a friend's iPhone and the display flex cable would not provide a proper connection without the little metal bracket over the top of it being installed. Honestly thought the replacement display was broken at a point. Never seen such on an android phone.
Considering the serious move EU as made regarding right to repair and imposing that any equipment must be repairable and have parts for it for at least 10 years, this ia going to be another serious pain for this brand.
I've also read an article recently where it was reported that all cell phones circulating in the EU must have replaceable batteries. And from what I took from the article it was meant replaceable by the end user.
Serious anti obsolescence legislation.
This will hurt Apple again.
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I'd really like to buy a Mac mini but that mark up on RAM is insane, with that money I can get 8x the same amount of DDR 5
The base config it's too limited and I can't accept to pay 250 euro for 8 extra gigs of RAM and another 250 euro for 250 extra gigs of SSD
Now if they just sold an ITX M2 motherboard with slots for DDR 5, m.2 and PCI express, I could pay 800 euro for that...
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at this point i dont care about apple products.
Man fuck Apple, how can anyone purchase anything from a company like this.
The sad fact is that they get away with it because they have the best laptops out there in terms of build quality and user comfort (try using a Macbook touchpad and then any other one after it).
They also have the best software integration because they have to support a limited number of hardware configurations
… try using a Macbook touchpad and then any other one after it.
^ This.
Have been given a current Surface Pro laptop for work and must use an external mouse, or rage in frustration that my 13 yo MBP has a better functioning trackpad.
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