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Framework laptops are getting better. Not Apple levels good, but it certainly beats them in average longevity.
The only hope with Apple is having the EU step in again to stop this kind of bullcrap.
I love the idea of Framework and I want to get one, but the price is multiple times of what I paid for my current machine... and this is better than the Framework in several ways. I'm hoping that a few of the Frameworks make it onto the second hand market and I'll buy one there. The idea of a laptop that's easy to replace and lasts forever is brilliant though, and I hope they take off.
What did you get and for how much? To me it seems the framework (at least the 16) is only a bit (100-200 out of 1600) more expensive than laptops with similar specs.
I paid approx $700 for a i5 with a Geforce 3050 and a 144hz screen. The RAM was weak but it was upgrade able so I got it up to 40GB, about $800 all up. It's an MSI.
The only downside is that it's such a pain to take apart and it's put together in a way where there's a very real chance of doing permanent damage when taking off the cover, since the case actually wraps around the ports and makes the motherboard bend when you apply any pressure to it. It came with 8GB of RAM out of the box, so basically unusable without the upgrade; still, I'm very happy with it atm.
Yeah the upfront cost is more, but personally I think it's more than worth it since it will probably end up being cheaper in the long term, especially if you like to upgrade frequently. I'm personally thinking I'm going to try the framework 16 route once I decide to rid of my current laptop. I hope they take off too and I'm more than willing to show support for a company pushing right to repair.
ThinkPads are far superior than MacBooks for longevity, user repairability, durability, keyboard and thermals. Also Linux compatibility is highest alongside System76, Framework, Tuxedo and others.
Not that I’m advocating for Apple’s inexcusable behaviour, but as someone who’s worked in IT managing fleets of hundreds of Thinkpads (among others like Apple, Dell, Acer, HP), respectfully, they are far less reliable and durable than a MacBook. The only devices I had with higher failure rates than ThinkPads were Acer laptops.
They are certainly more repairable, but so are others like Dell and HP. Lenovo were one of the earlier manufacturers to pull some anti-repair moves such as soldering memory to the mainboard (on the Yoga models).
I think your statement is far more accurate in the days when IBM owned the ThinkPad brand, but unfortunately Lenovo have run it into the ground as far as quality goes.
All that said, I certainly hope we see more projects like Framework so that these big manufacturers can get some sort of reality check.
Lenovo did not run ThinkPad to the ground. User repairability has become a lot more accessible to the average user since, and unlike greedy IBM, Lenovo prices them at various tiers. The only thing that has become less accessible is the battery, which is behind a few screws and a back cover now, to make the laptops thinner and lighter.
I have seen plenty ThinkPads being given to employees in corporate India, and they just work, unlike Dells and HPs, and are not astronomically costly to to buy and repair like MacBooks.
You’re just flat out wrong on this.
There’s a Wikipedia article for each series of thinkpad/idea book or whatever and it’s got a color coded chart you can scroll through to see the progression from more user replaceable to less.
Lenovo still has some lines that are modular, but they’re doing what everyone else is.
Only the X serie ultrabooks and Yogas are not as modular. What else is so non-modular among ThinkPads? Hot swappable battery versus battery behind few screws does not practically count, because they are easy to replace.
The e series and non-yoga L13s after 2019 (no surprise there), the t-series is available with partial soldered ram and a bunch of other stuff after 2013 (O.O) and only has a few configurations without soldered parts after 2020. Even the p series has partial soldered skus and one fully soldered one.
Oh yeah and all that is true for cpus as well. I didn’t feel like deciphering the two incredibly close colors they use on that chart for “socketed” and “soldered” so I’m not making specific claims but there’s a lot of soldered cpus in the thinkpad line now.
There has been a movement industry wide towards soldered components and Lenovo hasn’t completely committed the thinkpad line to it but they’re absolutely dipping their toes in.
Non-soldered CPUs basically have not been a thing since a decade, and only the most niche maker Framework has something resembling that today. That is less on Lenovo and more on how the "slim" trend has gone for laptop industry as a whole.
I have noticed the soldered RAM in the E/L serie, but did not know T has that now. But I think the general essence of a ThinkPad with user repairability and durability is retained even now, with even the base E serie since E480 having MILSPEC certification. Great ThinkPads are simply more expensive, and any ThinkPad you get will be way better than consumer grade laptops, which I think has merit.
Not sure that's true. I have a pretty top-of-the-line ThinkPad (3 years old) and it started falling apart after like a year of regular use. Maybe years ago that was true but nowadays I feel like everybody except maybe Apple has crap build quality.
Falling apart after a year? Maybe it was a lemon? What is your use case?
I do not think Apple has good build quality, when the smallest bump can dent it for ever, and it cannot take falls. Its keyboard is also a joke compared to most laptops..
I've had pretty much the opposite experience. My friend has a macbook that he drops all the time and still works.
Also it's not like other brands are immune to denting, it's just kind of the nature of the material.
Kinda agree on the keyboard but I got used to it and also most brands have that type of keyboards nowadays anyway.
I dropped my Dell inspiron and watched it plinko its way down an entire set of stairs and still worked fine, too.
and its a (comparatively) cheap plastic crap bag.
Build quality vs. The aluminum build materials are not equivalent comparison
I'm a PC person, I do NOT like apple, however about 7 years ago I started traveling for work more and had the option to get a MacBook (at the time way way better battery, screen) than our windows laptops. I was just carrying a thin closed laptop with me around, and others had their laptop, a charge cable, and a mouse to achieve the same level of use.
I fell in love with the thing as a whole. Could go 8h on battery, didn't need a mouse, didn't use a mouse or external monitors like I did when "home" with my windows laptop.
I still do not like apple, own/owned many generations of Pixel phones, I build my own windows PCs (last winter the most recent)
But we replaced our old HP 360 which was also aluminum, flip/touch screen (still a nice laptop) with a MacBook Air M1 when they came out because of my experience in both longevity, quality, ease of mobility use (the touchpad).
Still a PC guy but the three (2 from work) MacBooks I've had have been pretty amazing.
ThinkPads, until Apple switched to ARM, had more battery life. They continue to be the best battery life laptops as far as x86 machines go. I used to go 9-10 hours on my 48 Wh L470 without a charger, which does not even have the 72 Wh battery or extended hot swap pack that T models have.
I am not dunking on you when I say this, but people have a lot more needs for old and new programs that work in Windows, as opposed to Mac being dictated by Apple, and only having the newest shiny software largely incompatible outside of Apple ecosystem. Your needs are minimal, but most people's needs are variable and legacy based.
Your analogy, commonly cited, is beyond flawed when you say that people are carrying a multitude of accessories with their Windows laptops. Mac users need dongles since a few years now. A base model MacBook Air starts at $1000, and Windows laptops range from $300-$3000. You cannot compare the average $450 Best Buy Windows laptop to even the cheapest MacBook you can buy, and if you bought a $1000 Windows machine, you would get a lot better one than what Apple gives, unless you value the Apple Experience™ that treats you like a kid and not a power user with extensive needs that allow to work with other people and not just Mac users..
My analogy was not flawed. I was referring to my experience, while at work in / around warehouses while doing large installs between 2015-2017. What I wrote, was my experience. I literally watched people having to carry their charges out with them knowing their laptops were not gonna make a couple hours, much less a full shift. Also had their mice because we'll, windows touchpads are not a replacement for a mouse.
I'm not saying there were not better windows machines available, I'm saying at work what windows laptops they were using always seemed to struggle with battery life, were "ok" screens at best.
I've also still never owned a windows laptop that has a touchpad as good as a MacBook. I've also not searched for one. The HP360 I had had a "decent" one but still not as good as my experience with MacBooks.
I still don't like apple I still build use windows PCs as my primary device and 100% it's easier to use a windows machine for it's general compatibility of apps, both old and new.
I still like my MacBook Air, and my work MacBook pro (s) more than any previous work or home LAPTOP I've owned.
My work laptop at 4yo still had about 6h battery, and I was not wanting/needing a replacement. Most of my coworkers, including my personal experience were counting the days to get a new laptop once the warranty expired at 3y.
I do know that after I started using a MBP at work the windows laptops did get significantly better battery life and overall didn't seem to wear out as fast as the old ones, but I had no desire to switch back.
Keep in mind that my use case / experience with laptops is only as a primary device at work. At home all our laptops have been portable devices for general use, taking on a trip etc. So the need (at home) for it to do everything doesn't exist for US.
No doubt, owning a MacBook in a windows house has its challenges. It was quite a pain getting printing working. Ultimately had.ti spin up a docker print server that supported airprint so I could print to my Multifunction Brother printer. That doesn't, however change my general opinion of the MacBook hardware and ease of use as a laptop compared to my experience with Windows machines.
Your personal experience/testimony is based on your personal needs, unlike most people that would need a bunch of dongles for any Macbook bought in the last few years.
The analogy is very much flawed since it ignores majority users with different needs than you. Yes it is good for you, and the average Macbook buyer who never pays below $1000 is getting a better experience than the average Windows laptop buyer who pays ~$450. Does this make Macbook better? Not one bit. An equivalent priced Windows laptop will be better than Macbook for more or less everyone.
Touchpad and speakers are Macbook's strengths. But what about the weaknesses like:
... and so on?
Macbook is only good for people with the most basic surfing machine needs, something even a Chromebook can do. Its just a glorified Chromebook unless you are a Final Cut Pro user. Objectively, this does make Macbook an inferior prospect for any user who want to do anything more serious than surfing the web. Generalisations account for masses' needs instead of personal testimonies.
Again, my point was initially in response to you associating build quality with the materials chosen. I don't believe those are related how you represented them.
My two MBPs I used for work, (including a windows 10 vm on parallels) managed to get a lot done over the years well beyond browsing the web.
I was/am not arguing about which OS has more compatibility, programs etc. That's a completely different topic. Hell, the M1 was very limited with native apps for a long time.
As you conseeded, the touchpad is superior. Since I literally use that 95% of the time I'm on a laptop, that's a pretty big factor in usability. My HP360 was around $1200 (HP Spectre 13t x360) the MBA was $950.
My HP36 after a few years had to be returned to have it's motherboard replacement., The one bonus there was they upgraded it from an i5 to an i7 which was nice.
My second work MBP did have the infamous butterfly keys, and eventually one key started having issues last year. Again as NOT an Apple fan, the machine was under an extended warranty and with permission from work I dealt directly with apple to get it fixed. They sent me a box overnight, I returned it on a Monday, had it back the following Thursday with a new keyboard and battery.
Everything has good and bad, I think what apple is going to prevent consumers repairing their own stuff is terrible. I still like / have generally had a more pleasant experience using their laptops over Windows machines.
Completely unrelated, I absolutely hate iPhones though!
I am not sure I conceded on anything. I just love to call a spade a spade, regardless of if the entire world feels otherwise. Its true that Macbooks hold the advantage on touchpad, but Windows has superior software ways to utilise touchpad. Macbooks also tend to have better speakers but the gap is not that huge versus others, and even the screen on others can be better at sRGB coverage and with the option of anti-glare film.
Personally, I have never used touchpad at all, since I find myself married to the ThinkPad's TrackPoint, the supreme method of laptop mouse navigation. I find the touchpad incredibly unnatural to use, and the nipple mouse with fingers and thumb falling on the left/middle/right clicks below, with hands never moving off keyboard, is what works for me.
Everything can have good and bad, however it is true that dealbreakers are a personal thing, which decides what you ultimately get and use. For you its Macbooks, until you encounter something absolutely bizarre that breaks your workflow and peace of mind (also wallet).
Do not mind the rants too much, I am not a "reddit" type of mod who operates from the shadows and silently loves abusing power. I just love having icebreaker exchanges.
I'm definitely not trying to sell MacBooks or convince others of that.
I just like them better then windows for general day to day use especially if you have a windows machine as a backup :)
I loved the touchpad so much I only ever used that on my work laptops at the office or traveling. I also stopped using secondary monitors in lou of the extended desktops with the ease of swiping to a second, third or whatever all with a easy flick in the touchpad it became unnecessary to have an external monitor for 99% of the time (for me)
I'm also a long time Linux user so being able to drop into a native shell is pretty nice
Unless you need a workflow for tasks like video editing with long timeline, virtual desktop workspaces is something that once you learn, there is no going back. I love GNOME for that, as its UI is somewhere between Windows and Mac, with a unique twist of its own.
Its funny, how a lot of Mac users always have a Windows machine by the side. For me as a Debian user, Windows on a side SSD is necessary. We will never escape Windows, it seems... (눈_눈)
I'd never call myself a Mac guy though :) I just like MacBooks haha.
I have tried running various desktop Linux versions over the years, just never stuck with this.
I ran Debian on my own server, then VPS for years. I currently run Rocky Linux on it.
But windows definitely has a strangle hold on the market.
This is the opinion of someone who has not used a Thinkpad nor a MacBook built within the past three years.
That's my thought, too. My IBM T20 is still in great working order (with the original hardware, except for the PCI card, which I lost). My Lenovo T440 just died a couple months back. The T20 had Win98SE then Win2000 then XP and was used as a daily driver for about 5 years, before I had to retire it due to hardware specs (I still use it occasionally, but it now has antiX on it). The T440 had Win7 then Win10 and was a daily for about 3 years before it started having mechanical issues, then finally fried. I got an E595 and stuck Fedora on it. Hopefully, it will last long enough to get me saved up for a Framework, but I doubted. A part of me believes that the old IBM ThinkPads will outlast humanity, along with cockroaches and McDonald's fries. Honestly, I should learn my lesson and stop buying Lenovo (used or otherwise), but I had to have something since the T440 letdown and the E595 was on a liquidation sale.
The L14 Gen1 I have must be an exception then. The fingerprint reader isn't compatible at all (I feel kinda taken for a ride there since it's seemingly the only Synaptics reader without Linux compatibility) and both Bluetooth and USB are very buggy. I haven't used it with Windows, so the latter two may also be down to crappy firmware. Either way I'm rather disappointed for the price tag and probably not buying Lenovo again any time soon.
T14 Gen 2 (AMD) has Linux compatibility issues with the touchpad of all things.
Unfortunately, the Synaptic FP reader in yours might unironically be an anomaly, as the one in my L470 was supported even during Ubuntu 16.04 era. It may be possible that since the *80 generation of ThinkPads, the E and L series closed the gap on mediocrity, unlike the T/X/P series. Lenovo does maintain though a Linux compatibility chart for ThinkPads.
I would love a Framework laptop, but my current laptop (a Dell XPS 15 from 2017) is still going strong. Buying a new repairable laptop defeats the whole sustainable thing if there's nothing wrong with my current one. I've done 2 fixes to my current laptop: Replaced the speakers that had died, and added thermal pads to the VRMs to fix an overheating / throttling issue. Even the battery is fine still.
Agreed, a lot of people get into sustainability and rush out to buy sustainable stuff. Even with something like a plastic bag, it's better to use it for as long as you reasonably can than to throw it away and rush out to buy an organic cotton one.
Hey there, fellow 2017er! Different worlds, I know, but I'm just finding out my specific model 2017 MacBook Pro--the 13" without a "touchbar"--was the last model with a replaceable SSD, so I'm about to upgrade it to 2TB. Eventually I'll probably replace its battery, but, for now, I'm even pretty happy with the remaining battery capacity. I'm just hoping it keeps working long enough for the right-to-repair movement to force Apple back to replaceable wear-and-tear parts (particularly SSD and battery) before I have to decide whether to choose between a completely unserviceable replacement model or switching platforms again.