this post was submitted on 01 May 2024
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If I had a nickel for every time this happened... (lemmy.world)
submitted 6 months ago by PugJesus@lemmy.world to c/memes@lemmy.world
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[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 50 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (2 children)

Unfair to Paul, as he tries desperately to avoid jihad at every turn. In the end, he surrenders to the inevitability because he realizes his choices were always only illusions. The more power and the more understanding Paul accrues, the more clearly he realizes how little he truly controls.

I would more readily blame the Psycho-Historians from Foundation than the Muad'dib of Dune. Hari Seldon might not qualify as a twink, but he was more ready to embrace a little short term genocide for long term preservation than Paul, who struggled against it in vain.

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 17 points 6 months ago

Well, it didn't say that he WILLINGLY turned into a genocidal dictator

[–] Sanctus@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I got the opposite from the book. Paul tells himself that just to calm his consciousness. He believed he could have his cake and eat it too right up until he is dodging Feyd's hip needle, which is far too late.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 13 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Paul tells himself that just to calm his consciousness.

Paul knows he isn't in control of his own destiny. He's known since he became a Mentat. In the crash following his escape from the Harkonan ambush, he sees it clearly. He can calculate all the ramifications of all his decisions out to thousandth year and no matter what he says or does, it always ends in Jihad.

The closest person to demonstrate agency was his mother, who chose to have a boy rather than a girl in strict defiance of the Bene Gesserit mission. Everything past that was functionally on rails.

He believed he could have his cake and eat it too right up until he is dodging Feyd’s hip needle

He believed he could potentially find a path forward, until he was confronted with a Gonjabar Test he couldn't pass. At that point, he was forced to choose between dying as a martyr (which would kick off a Freman jihad) or living as an Emperor (which would still kick off a Freman jihad, just a bit latter on). And he said "Fuck it, I'd rather be Emperor". That was his only real choice. Die a hero or live to become a villain. But with the same fundamental outcome for the rest of the galaxy.

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 4 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago)

He chose to be an emperor because it was the best choice for humanity. They needed to largely destroy themselves. After Messiah he leaves into the desert after Chani dies because he can't handle things anymore. His son, Lato II, becomes a sandworm to live for thousands of years so humanity can essentially destroy itself and come back better.

The question is, is their prescience actually perfect or are they limited? Is this actually the only way things could go? Did they miss something as an option because of their own biases?

The books are essentially about a failing of humans to want to follow charismatic leaders. This all happens because the humans wanted to follow either Paul or whoever comes after him. They were ready for the Jihad to happen and just needed to find the person to embody it. If humans can overcome this desire we will be better for it, but we keep doing it.

[–] Sanctus@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Paul had plenty of choices, just the ones where he got his revenge on the Harkonnens all lead to Jihad or his death. He chose that road. He spoke of another future where he knelt by the Baron instead, would that future have led to jihad? Certainly it would not have led to his revenge. Its definitely an interesting setting and story. A cautionary tale of being wrapped up in your own myth.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

just the ones where he got his revenge on the Harkonnens all lead to Jihad or his death

Early on, he has visions of the Fremen worshiping his father's skull and revolting without ever meeting Paul. He can't avoid Jihad by refusing the call to destiny. The Bene Gessiats have been baking this cake for too long.

[–] Sanctus@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

They're worshiping his father's skull within the memorial made by Paul. In those visions Paul still met them.

[–] CraigeryTheKid@lemm.ee 18 points 6 months ago (1 children)

whats the reference to Hunger Games?..

[–] TheFlopster@lemmy.world 40 points 6 months ago (1 children)

That's the prequel movie. The one where you see the beginnings of, uh, head dictator guy who starts the hunger games. (I didn't watch it.)

[–] CraigeryTheKid@lemm.ee 9 points 6 months ago (1 children)

I had no idea there was a prequel!

[–] TheRaven@lemmy.ca 4 points 6 months ago (1 children)

It’s actually really good. It’s based off the book, and covers Snow and his interaction with the 10th hunger games.

[–] neeeeDanke@feddit.de 0 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Eh, it's ok. The visuals are awsome, but the story is to much for one movie and therefore feels very rushed.

Could have easily been 2-3 movies maybe then we would have gotten a better character developement for Snow.

[–] TheRaven@lemmy.ca 2 points 6 months ago

I agree it could have been split in 2. I felt that way after I read the book.

[–] mo_lave@reddthat.com 14 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Attack on Titan

[–] RGB3x3@lemmy.world 3 points 6 months ago

Erin is probably the most genocidal of any character

[–] Acedia@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

This is the one I came for

[–] rockerface@lemm.ee 13 points 6 months ago (3 children)

See also: The Wheel of Time books by Robert Jordan. They also have a warmongering desert tribe that worships water, covers their faces in combat and has weird rituals nobody else understands

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 10 points 6 months ago

But the Messiah in WoT brings them back from the brink of jihad rather than flinging them off the cliff (as the Aiel False Dragon attempts to do).

Its a subversion of the trope.

[–] Crackhappy@lemmy.world 4 points 6 months ago

And a Messiah.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 3 points 6 months ago (1 children)

?

I don't think Rand counts as either twink or genocidal. The Breaking wasn't really on him.

[–] rockerface@lemm.ee 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

Darth Rand counts

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 1 points 6 months ago* (last edited 6 months ago) (1 children)

It's been a while but I don't recall him even ordering a mass execution of "Darkfriends," much less a genocide. Even at his most paranoid he deals with people on an individual level.

Entirely possible I just don't remember it.

[–] rockerface@lemm.ee 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

He literally ordered to nuke an entire city out of existence at one point

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

The abandoned city no people lived in or went near because it was corrupted with an evil goo almost as bad as the Dark One himself?

[–] rockerface@lemm.ee 3 points 6 months ago

Oh, sorry, not a city - a fort, Natrin's Barrow, occupied by one of the Forsaken and a bunch of magicked slaves (hundreds of them)

[–] Vinny_93@lemmy.world 12 points 6 months ago (1 children)

The fact that Dune and Star Wars are similar stems from the 70s when Star Wars first came out and George Lucas settled when they were sued by Frank Herbert

[–] PugJesus@lemmy.world 28 points 6 months ago (2 children)

Did he sue? I thought he just bitched about the rather surface-level similarities.

[–] Vinny_93@lemmy.world 15 points 6 months ago

Yeah he never sued, you're right.

[–] DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 6 points 6 months ago

Which is absurd, given how many pulp artists Herbert ripped off.

[–] dditty@lemm.ee 8 points 6 months ago

Code Geass

[–] BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee 7 points 6 months ago (1 children)

anakin is considered a twink?

[–] Reddfugee42@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago (1 children)

That's the implication

[–] BigBananaDealer@lemm.ee 1 points 6 months ago (1 children)

what makes him a twink i have never heard this

[–] Reddfugee42@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

that's crazy

[–] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago

The story of Netanyahu's wife.

[–] TheBat@lemmy.world 6 points 6 months ago

- Eva Braun

[–] neo@feddit.de 4 points 6 months ago

Spoilers! :(

[–] ekZepp@lemmy.world 2 points 6 months ago

Accurate

[–] FrostyCaveman@lemm.ee 2 points 6 months ago

goddamnit not again!

[–] p5yk0t1km1r4ge@lemmy.world 1 points 6 months ago

"Twink" really gives off pseudo derogatory vibes doesn't it?