this post was submitted on 13 Apr 2024
729 points (95.8% liked)

linuxmemes

21273 readers
443 users here now

Hint: :q!

Sister communities:

Community rules (click to expand)

1. Follow the site-wide rules

2. Be civil
  • Understand the difference between a joke and an insult.
  • Do not harrass or attack members of the community for any reason.
  • Leave remarks of "peasantry" to the PCMR community. If you dislike an OS/service/application, attack the thing you dislike, not the individuals who use it. Some people may not have a choice.
  • Bigotry will not be tolerated.
  • These rules are somewhat loosened when the subject is a public figure. Still, do not attack their person or incite harrassment.
    • 3. Post Linux-related content
  • Including Unix and BSD.
  • Non-Linux content is acceptable as long as it makes a reference to Linux. For example, the poorly made mockery of sudo in Windows.
  • No porn. Even if you watch it on a Linux machine.
    • 4. No recent reposts
  • Everybody uses Arch btw, can't quit Vim, and wants to interject for a moment. You can stop now.

    • Please report posts and comments that break these rules!

    founded 1 year ago
    MODERATORS
    poopsmith@lemmy.world
    zephyr@lemmy.world
    rtxn@lemmy.world
    729
    Supreme leader mad (sh.itjust.works)
    submitted 7 months ago by 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works to c/linuxmemes@lemmy.world
    102 comments fedilink hide all child comments
     
    top 50 comments
    sorted by: hot top controversial new old
    [–] tubbadu@lemmy.kde.social 92 points 7 months ago (10 children)

    Is there some lore about this I don't know?

    [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 137 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    There is no C++ allowed in the Linux kernel and Linus has gone on several major rants about how terrible a language it is.

    [–] VubDapple@lemmy.world 53 points 7 months ago (5 children)

    Is it all C?

    [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 86 points 7 months ago (1 children)

    There’s assembly and makefiles too

    Less of a joke answer, there has been work to allow Rust bindings for drivers.

    [–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 26 points 7 months ago

    rust too

    [–] BartyDeCanter@lemmy.sdf.org 85 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    According to the github analysis, the kernel repository is:

    • C 98.3%
    • Assembly 0.7%
    • Shell 0.4%
    • Makefile 0.2%
    • Python 0.2%
    • Perl 0.1%
    • Other 0.1%

    So yeah, its basically all C, plus a tiny bit of assembly for very low level bootstrapping and some helper scripts.

    [–] rambling_lunatic@sh.itjust.works 30 points 7 months ago (1 children)

    Yeah but a lot of that C code has inline assembly so it's more like 5-10% asm.

    [–] riodoro1@lemmy.world 13 points 7 months ago (1 children)

    Inline assembly is such a shit practice. But c++ bad.

    [–] Mananasi@feddit.nl 11 points 7 months ago (1 children)

    Sometimes you can't get around it though.

    load more comments (1 replies)
    load more comments (3 replies)
    [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 17 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    Lots of core UNIX and Linux projects are. C++ is not liked by a lot of low level FOSS community. I think Rust is going to get further into these areas. I know C++ well but prefer C. I know plenty of others who feel the same.

    load more comments (6 replies)
    load more comments (2 replies)
    load more comments (1 replies)
    [–] Rossphorus@lemm.ee 76 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Torvalds just really dislikes C++. He's gone on the record saying that he thinks it's just not a good language. In his own words "C++ is just a waste, there is no design at all, just adding some scum on top of C."

    [–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 55 points 7 months ago (1 children)

    he's not wrong

    [–] acockworkorange@mander.xyz 33 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    In the specific use case of kernel programming, maybe. But the Standard Template Library is awesome.

    [–] Vilian@lemmy.ca 5 points 7 months ago

    they dumped everything in the languaga, at least samething they needed to have right, it's otherwise statistically impossible

    load more comments (2 replies)
    [–] nandeEbisu@lemmy.world 34 points 7 months ago

    Never before have I been so offended by something I 100% agree with.

    [–] blind3rdeye@lemm.ee 12 points 7 months ago

    I would have agreed with that before C++11. But since then, C++ has improved a lot. Its like the vision of what C++ suddenly became more clear. So I wonder if Linus would still say that today. (Unfortunately, there have been a lot of missteps in the development of C++ though, and so there is a lot of cruft that everyone wishes was not there...)

    [–] jalkasieni@sopuli.xyz 53 points 7 months ago

    ”C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do nothing but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.”

    http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus

    [–] raoul@lemmy.sdf.org 41 points 7 months ago (1 children)

    I don't know about Linus, but the last time Reiser's wife was seen, she was writing a c++ hello world

    [–] ikidd@lemmy.world 21 points 7 months ago

    Too soon.

    [–] ozymandias117@lemmy.world 25 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    For an example from the other poster’s explanation:

    https://lwn.net/Articles/249460/

    This was pre c++11 - not sure if he’s changed his mind at all with more modern c++

    [–] 5C5C5C@programming.dev 11 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    He absolutely has not.

    load more comments (6 replies)
    load more comments (5 replies)
    [–] vox@sopuli.xyz 25 points 7 months ago (1 children)

    ”C++ is a horrible language. It's made more horrible by the fact that a lot of substandard programmers use it, to the point where it's much much easier to generate total and utter crap with it. Quite frankly, even if the choice of C were to do nothing but keep the C++ programmers out, that in itself would be a huge reason to use C.”

    http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/linus

    [–] MashedTech@lemmy.world 18 points 7 months ago (1 children)

    Literally apply that train of thought to JavaScript and JavaScript is in an even worse position than C++

    [–] CancerMancer@sh.itjust.works 9 points 7 months ago

    JavaScript has the Node.js community in it and that just says it all really.

    load more comments (3 replies)
    [–] Bye@lemmy.world 52 points 7 months ago (4 children)

    The day I learned that Linus shares my disdain for all things OOP was such a good day for me.

    [–] ADTJ@feddit.uk 77 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    Me, when Linus' opinion is different to mine: "Linus has such weirdly strong opinions about this"

    Me when Linus' opinion is the same as mine: VINDICATION

    [–] Emmie@lemm.ee 5 points 7 months ago

    peak hairless ape

    [–] evranch@lemmy.ca 23 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    I feel the OOP debate got a bit out of hand. I hate OOP as well, as a paradigm.

    But I love objects. An object is just a struct that can perform operations on itself. It's super useful. So many problems lend themselves to the use of objects.

    I've been writing a mix of C and C++ for so long I don't even know where the line is supposed to be. It's "C with objects". I probably use only 1% of the functionality of C++, but that 1% is a huge upgrade from bare C IMO.

    [–] namingthingsiseasy@programming.dev 13 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    Agreed. Objects are nice and a great way to program. Composition is great. Traits/interfaces are great. Namespaces are great. Objects are a really nice way to reap the benefits of principles like these.

    But then there are aspects of OOP that absolutely suck, like inheritance. I hate inheritance. The rules get very confusing very quickly. For example, try understanding overriding of methods. Do I need to call the superclass method or not? If not, does it get called automatically? If so, in what order? How do these rules change for the constructor? Now repeat this exercise for every OOP language you use and try not to mix them up... Java, C++, Python, etc.

    Fortunately, it feels like we rely on inheritance less and less these days. As an example, I really like how Java allows you to implement Runnable these days. Before, if you wanted to run a thread, you needed a separate object that inherited Thread. And what if that object needs to inherit from another one too? Things would get out of hand quickly. (This is a very old example, but with lambdas and other new features, things are getting even better now.)

    Anyway, long story short, I think OOP is a complicated way to achieve good principles, and there are simpler ways to achieve those principles than a full OOP implementation.

    load more comments (3 replies)
    load more comments (1 replies)
    [–] jabjoe@feddit.uk 13 points 7 months ago (13 children)

    He is is OK with OOP. The Linux kernel is full of OPP C, but he doesn't like C++

    [–] refalo@programming.dev 5 points 7 months ago (6 children)

    He writes Qt C++ for his diving app though.

    load more comments (6 replies)
    load more comments (12 replies)
    load more comments (1 replies)
    [–] sep@lemmy.world 39 points 7 months ago

    I know it is a complete joke. But every time i think of c++ i am reminded of this prank article https://www-users.york.ac.uk/~ss44/joke/cpp.htm

    [–] loaExMachina@sh.itjust.works 33 points 7 months ago (2 children)

    I wonder what would offend Linus more: A version of the Linux Kernel with C++ or one that breaks the userspace...

    [–] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 32 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    A PHP kernel?

    [–] Rozauhtuno@lemmy.blahaj.zone 13 points 7 months ago (1 children)

    That's just a crime against humanity.

    [–] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 9 points 7 months ago (3 children)

    You know you want a PHP distribution with a JavaScript interface. Don't lie to yourself.

    load more comments (3 replies)
    [–] 0x4E4F@sh.itjust.works 9 points 7 months ago

    Uuuuu... you done it now 😬...

    [–] uis@lemm.ee 6 points 7 months ago

    Hauge

    load more comments (1 replies)
    [–] Tikiporch@lemmy.world 14 points 7 months ago

    Mic looks like earring, can't unsee it...

    [–] Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 7 points 7 months ago

    Assembly it is, then

    [–] supercriticalcheese@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago

    10 in binary as well

    load more comments
    view more: next ›