this post was submitted on 15 Mar 2024
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[–] Trudge@lemmygrad.ml 10 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Essentially the goal is this: to use a giant electromagnetic launch track to accelerate a hypersonic aircraft to Mach 1.6. The aircraft would then separate from the track, ignite its engine and enter near space at seven times the speed of sound.

Does no one read the article anymore before commenting? I'm not responding to all the comments here since it's clearly a waste of my time, but every single one of the concerns that people mention in this thread so far has been acknowledged in the article already.

[–] heluecht@pirati.ca -1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

@yogthos Sadly the article is behind a paywall, so I have to make some educated guesses. This idea has got multiple problems. First thing is that especially when you want to transport people (like said in the article), the g-load is really limited. This means that your rail gun would had to be incredibly long to speed up the plane to a significant speed. Remember that you need to travel at 25,000 km/h to stay in orbit.

But even when you sped up to such a speed, you would experience a ton of drag because of the air resistance. It is only feasible to really speed up in higher regions (> 70-80km). So you would need some kind of first stage that had to carry some kind of a second stage to that region, so that it could accelerate from there. But this is exactly the concept that is used by rockets like the Falcon9/Falcon Heavy or Rocket Labs Electron, who all perform a stage separation in that region and perform a RTLS or controlled splash down to recover the first stage.

Also you would had only a single possible orbit here. But in reality there are a bunch of different interesting orbits out there.

Then just think about the costs. Just calculate how much launches with systems like the F9 or the upcoming Neutron you would have to perform, to even reach the break even point.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 3 points 7 months ago (1 children)

here's a full article so you don't have to speculate https://archive.ph/KbL8c

[–] heluecht@pirati.ca -2 points 7 months ago (2 children)
[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 4 points 7 months ago (2 children)

since it works for me, here's the text from it

People could soon be launched into space using a type of hypersonic rail gun, as Chinese scientists and engineers combine the significant advances made in recent years in both electromagnetic launch and hypersonic flight. Essentially the goal is this: to use a giant electromagnetic launch track to accelerate a hypersonic aircraft to Mach 1.6. The aircraft would then separate from the track, ignite its engine and enter near space at seven times the speed of sound. This space plane, a behemoth weighing 50 tonnes and measuring longer than a Boeing 737, is part of the “Tengyun project” unveiled in 2016. Relying on the plane’s own power for lift-off would require a huge amount of fuel. And to ensure safety during a low-speed take-off, scientists and engineers have had to make compromises in aerodynamic design and engine layout that affect high-speed flight efficiency. But, while in the past such projects did not get past the discussion phase, this time it is different. China is putting words into action. And scientists working on the project are confident the various issues can be solved.

“Electromagnetic launch technology provides a promising solution to overcome these challenges and has emerged as a strategic frontier technology being pursued by the world’s leading nations,” the team, led by scientist Li Shaowei with the magnetoelectric general department of China Aerospace Science and Industry Corporation’s (CASIC) Flight Vehicle Technology Research Institute, wrote in a peer-reviewed paper published in the Chinese academic journal Acta Aeronautica on February 6. Putting theory to the test To test the theory, CASIC, one of China’s foremost aerospace and defence contractors, has constructed a 2km (1.2 mile) low-vacuum track high-speed maglev test facility in the industrial heartland of Datong, Shanxi province.

This facility can propel a heavy object to speeds approaching 1,000km/h (620mph)– close to the speed of sound. In the coming years, the length of the test line will be extended to achieve a maximum operating speed of 5,000km/h. This is the most ambitious electromagnetic propulsion facility on the planet, poised to support the development of next-generation high-speed railways and gather vital scientific and engineering data for the space electromagnetic launch project. Meanwhile in Jinan, capital of the eastern Shandong province, another giant maglev track to support ultra high-speed electromagnetic sled experiments is also up and running, under the supervision of the Chinese Academy of Sciences (CAS).

Nasa’s failure to launch China is not the first country to propose an electromagnetic space launch system. Such concepts have been floating around since the Cold War era. In the 1990s, Nasa tried to bring this idea from paper to reality, with the first step being the construction of a mini test line measuring 15 metres (49 feet). However, due to insufficient funding and technical difficulties, the actual length of the completed track was less than 10 metres. Eventually, the project was scrapped, and government and military leaders redirected resources towards the development of low-speed electromagnetic catapult technology for aircraft carriers instead. But the USS Ford, the first aircraft carrier to be fitted out with this new technology, has been plagued with issues. During Donald Trump’s presidency, he complained that the actual performance of the electromagnetic catapults was far inferior to that of their traditional steam counterparts. The US Navy has also publicly acknowledged that the excessively high failure rate of the Ford’s electromagnetic catapult system has resulted in reduced combat capability for the entire carrier strike group. Due to significant setbacks in electromagnetic launch technology, the US military has abandoned the development of some related projects, such as rail guns, and shifted the saved funding to hypersonic missiles. Now, China has picked up the relay baton handed off by America. Nonetheless, Li and his colleagues are being cautious.

Computer simulations, wind tunnel tests In the early stages of their research, they uncovered a startling omission by Nasa: no wind tunnel tests were ever conducted to ascertain the viability of detaching the space plane from its track. Nasa’s original idea was that accelerating the space shuttle to just 700km/h would be enough to eliminate the need for a first-stage rocket, but Chinese scientists believe this speed is too low. However as the speed increases, the airflow between the aircraft, the electromagnetic sled carrying it and the ground track becomes very intense and complex. So one of the first things the project team must confirm is that the aircraft will be able to safely separate from the track. To this end, Li’s team has conducted extensive computer simulations and wind tunnel tests. Their findings have revealed that as the aircraft breaches the sound barrier, numerous shock waves ripple along its underside, colliding with the ground and generating a cascade of reflections. These shock waves introduce airflow disruptions, carving out pockets of subsonic airflow amid the aircraft, electromagnetic sled and track.

When the sled then hits its target speed, releases the aircraft and brakes abruptly, the chaotic airflow initially buoys the craft, only to transition into a downward thrust after four seconds, according to the wind tunnel test result. If there were passengers on board, they might experience brief dizziness or weightlessness. But as the distance between the aircraft and the track increases, the intensity of the airflow diminishes until disappearing completely. Accompanied by the roar of the engine, the aircraft then enters a rapid climb phase. Certain sections of the craft require reinforcement to withstand the reflected shock waves. Further real-world tests are also needed. But overall, this approach is safe and feasible, Li’s team wrote in the paper.

China’s advantages in rail gun research In the realm of electromagnetic space launch systems, China is ahead of the game, with some clear advantages that other nations lack. Major defence players like CASIC have already produced their own hypersonic weapons which are now part of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) arsenal – and generate an income for their creators. Plus, China is ahead in electromagnetic rail gun research, having made breakthroughs including high-performance power supplies, precision control technology, wear-resistant coatings and the development of electronic devices capable of resisting strong electromagnetic interference. China’s robust manufacturing sector can also supply the world’s finest and most cost-effective rare earth permanent magnets or superconducting wires for high-speed maglev tracks. Numerous cities, eager to build high-speed maglev trains, are ready to invest. And following Elon Musk’s discontinuation of Hyperloop One last year, China stands alone in its commitment to advancing this technology. While SpaceX’s reusable rockets have slashed satellite launch costs to US$3,000/kg, some scientists have estimated that an electromagnetic space launch system could drive those costs down to a mere US$60/kg.

[–] heluecht@pirati.ca -1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

@yogthos So the system just accelerates to Mach 1.6, then the system had to use its own fuel to speed up to just Mach 7. But Mach 7 is just a fraction of the needed velocity to get into orbit. Mach 7 is around 8,500 km/h. But you need 25,000 km/h to stay in orbit. So you need an additional stage to accelerate to that speed. And that stage would had to be expendable, otherwise you couldn't carry enough payload.

Still you can only reach a single orbit. To reach another orbital plane, you then would had to use a lot of additional propellant to perform a dogleg maneuver to switch to a different plane.

BTW: This whole idea reminds me of SpinLaunch. Prototypes are already built by the U.S. based company with the same name. They want to accelerate small launchers in a vacuum chamber, so that in the end they can carry up to 300kg in a low earth orbit.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 4 points 7 months ago (1 children)

But the goal isn't to stay in orbit. The goal is to push the plane to upper atmosphere where there is low air resistance, and then it mostly glides to where it needs to go. The article very clearly explains that the goal is to create an alternative to long range flights instead of doing space launches. I'm also familiar with SpinLaunch, and it's a completely different purpose where they want to launch small satellites into low Earth orbit.

[–] heluecht@pirati.ca 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

@yogthos The articles ends in "While SpaceX’s reusable rockets have slashed satellite launch costs to US$3,000/kg, some scientists have estimated that an electromagnetic space launch system could drive those costs down to a mere US$60/kg."

This is a comparison to a launch into an orbit.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

This tech can be used for both purposes, but most of the article discusses transportation. Once China puts this tech in production, I'm sure it will be used for orbital launches as well.

[–] heluecht@pirati.ca 0 points 7 months ago (1 children)

@yogthos I now had more time to look into the article. The whole article is focused solely on the electromagnet technology. From here it refers to some other technology that uses electromagnet acceleration like Musk's fever dream "Hyperloop" and sea carrier catapults while in the end making a reference to orbital launch costs.

Thing is: It simply doesn't make sense. Neither in point-to-point transportation nor in space launch activities this would work out, since you could reach only a single orbital plane or flight direction. To reach more than one point or orbit, you would need to have a lot of these systems, which then would result in really high operational costs.

However, this technology is fine for a highly improved land based transportation method, especially for China, which is the forth biggest country (behind Russia, Canada and the USA).

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

This is literally what people said about high speed rail. The argument was that this is simply not cost effective and that's why it can't be built. Yet, China covered the whole country with HSR in a decade. Short term cost effectiveness isn't really an issue when you have a state directed economy. And costs for any new technology come down over time. Maybe China will start using it for ground based transportation first, and then start using it for other applications. We'll just wait and see.

[–] heluecht@pirati.ca -1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

@yogthos Which people said that about high speed rail? The country I'm living in has got high speed rail since the 90s. See also Japan or France (and some other countries).

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

This is a common narrative in US and Canada, meanwhile countries like France or Japan are dismissed as being small. Here's an example for you https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-high-speed-bullet-trains-wont-work-in-the-u-s-right-now/

[–] heluecht@pirati.ca 0 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

@yogthos I'm not living in the US, neither I'm a fan of most of their politics. So I definitely won't defend them.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

The original point was that arguments about cost efficiency have been made regarding HSR. Every new technology is expensive when it's initially developed, and it requires significant investment. One way to look at that is to say that it's not worth spending the effort on, another way to look at it is that spending the effort creates jobs, spurs innovation, and brings long term benefits to society. It's pretty clear to me that China tends to take the long view on such things, and hence I think it's very probable that they will try building such launch systems.

[–] heluecht@pirati.ca 1 points 7 months ago (1 children)

@yogthos Well, I've got the opinion, that infrastructure shouldn't be operated for profit, so I've got no problem with investing a lot of money in advance. My points are meant from a technical standpoint. And when I refer to the costs, then I mean this in a way that I've got the opinion that the money should be invested in other stuff as well.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 7 months ago

I don't think anybody is arguing this sort of stuff should be funded at the expense of other stuff though, and based on how quickly the standard of living is improving in China, seems that they are doing a pretty good job funding the other stuff.

[–] Trudge@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 7 months ago

Works for me

[–] electricprism@lemmy.ml -4 points 7 months ago

Just Like Evergrand