this post was submitted on 26 Jul 2023
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For a long time, I thought of the blockchain as almost synonymous with cryptocurrencies, so as I saw stuff like "Odyssey" and "lbry" appearing and being "based on the blockchain", my first thought was that it was another crypto scam. Then, I just got reminded of it and started looking more into it, and it just seemed like regular torrenting. For example, what's the big innovation separating Odyssey from Peertube, which is also decentralized and also uses P2P? And what part of it does the blockchain really play, that couldn't be done with regular P2P? More generally, and looking at the futur, does the blockchain offer new possibilities that the fediverse or pre-existing protocols don't have?

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[–] dragontamer@lemmy.world 38 points 1 year ago (14 children)

Merkel Trees are fine, and are how things like "Git" keep track of different files (and how distributed hash tables and file-sharing often work).

Merkel Trees are trees-of-hashes, which the cryptocoin world wants us to believe go by the new name of 'Blockchain', but people familiar with comp. sci history know that they're just flailing about making shit up.

Blockchain is an application of Merkel Trees. Merkel Trees have lots of good uses, but Blockchain doesn't seem to have much use after 10+ years of experimentation.

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[–] kirklennon@kbin.social 24 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I thought it sounded interesting when it was new but the more I've learned, the more convinced I am that it's completely useless. I've never seen anything done on a blockchain that couldn't be done faster, cheaper, and more securely in a SQL database. Even the not-a-scam applications are ridiculous and fall apart upon examination. Blockchain as a definitive record of ownership? Absolutely not. There's no way to force a person to update a record. Lose your house in a bankruptcy? The sheriff on his way to evict you isn't going to care that you've got some NFT saying you still own the house. Anything involving contracts at all? If a court can't unilaterally update the blockchain record, then the record is unreliable. But if the government can unilaterally update a record, then you're not relying on community consensus and immutability in the first place.

Blockchain isn't useful for anything important, and it's not a logical choice for anything trivial aside from literally just playing with blockchain stuff for the sake of playing with blockchains. I think it's a dead-end technology.

[–] dragontamer@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

Blockchain as a definitive record of ownership? Absolutely not.

Oh, its worse than you think.

https://www.cs.princeton.edu/~arvindn/publications/mining_CCS.pdf

Once BTC hits enough halvening-cycles, the entire protocol doesn't work anymore. Its more beneficial to fork the blockchain (and collect ~50 transaction fees), rather than work on the head (and only collect ~5 transaction fees).

So if the last block confirmed 100-transactions (aka: collected 100 transaction fees), its more beneficial to undo that block and "steal" ~50 transactions, knowing that you're leaving ~50 transactions for another miner to follow onto your block. (Ex: there are now two blocks: one with ~5 transactions available, the truth... and ~55 transactions available. The lie / false block you created. The lie is more economically beneficial to the next miner, so they'll switch to your block).

It turns out that BTC forgot how to handle ties after the end of the "Free reward", and there's a good chance that "definitive record" is not so definitive.

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[–] BeigeAgenda@lemmy.ca 22 points 1 year ago (2 children)

The "blockchain" I use on a daily basis is git, where the sha of the previous commit affects the next.

[–] loaExMachina@sh.itjust.works 11 points 1 year ago

Given that git was invented before the word "blockchain" started being used, shouldn't we call blockchain applications "git-like" rather than retroactively calling Git a blockchain?

[–] Mubelotix@jlai.lu 5 points 1 year ago

A commitchain

[–] alokir@lemmy.world 16 points 1 year ago (4 children)

I find it to be an interesting solution looking for a problem. There could be many applications but I've yet to see one that blockchain could solve better than anything else that we already have, outside of crypto currencies.

Web3 is an interesting though experiment but I don't see how it would work in real life. It would be extremely slow, data loss would be a daily occurrence and it would be a privacy/security nightmare.

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[–] pizza_rolls@kbin.social 15 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Blockchain (simplified) is a giant excel spreadsheet that you can never edit, only add to. I struggle to think of any applications that is a benefit for, and even then append only databases would already do it better.

One of the benefits is supposed to be decentralization, but people tout that as a benefit for things like house deeds, or identification, or whatever. Imagine how massive an append only excel file of every house with every owner change etc etc included in it would be. Then we once again only have the people who can afford to store that much data storing it, and we are back to where we are now.

It doesn't really solve any problems, it just is a worse version of what already exists.

[–] Ajen@sh.itjust.works 5 points 1 year ago (8 children)

Something about this comment didn't seem right to me, so I did some quick math:

There are approx 144,000,000 homes (incl apartments, etc) in the US. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/VET605221

Assuming every home is sold 5 times on average, that's 720,000,000 sale records/deeds.

Existing blockchain implementations use IDs that are around 32 bits, or 4 bytes.

A "home sales record" or deed on the blockchain needs to include the buyer and the time/date of sale (8 bytes), along with a cryptographic signature (4-16 bytes). The seller's identity doesn't need to be included because it's always doing to be the previous owner.

So each record is 16-28 bytes, and there are 720,000,000 records. If we go with 28bytes, it would take about 20GB to store all of the deeds for the US. A 500GB hard drive costs $20.

[–] Valmond4@lemmy.mindoki.com 7 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You forget that the blockchain is all about not trusting some middle-man/site, so you need to stock that blockchain yourself, everyone needs to stock that blockchain.

So multiply not only the cost, but also the ecological impact just buying all those drives.

And that's only for *US" housing (I didn't get the timeframe you used to calculate it, is it for like year 2050? Old data stays forever.).

BTW found the guy buying 0.5TB Hard drives ;-)

[–] Ajen@sh.itjust.works 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Yes, everyone would need a copy of the 10s-of-GB blockchain. That's a fraction of the amount of space a single computer game would use, does that seem unreasonable/impractical to you?

And I buy used enterprise 2-3TB drives on eBay :) . I was going to use a 32GB flash drive for my example, but a 500GB HDD is the same price

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[–] oshitwaddup@lemmy.antemeridiem.xyz 3 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Would a git repo count as a blockchain? It kinda fits your simplified description

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So Google, Amazon, Apple, and many other large companies in the IoT space are using a blockchain as a federated data store: https://github.com/zigbee-alliance/distributed-compliance-ledger

It stores the data needed for Matter [ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matter_(standard) ] device attestation.

I think its an interesting use case on how entities that don't particularly trust each other can operate a federated system. Accounts are linked to an identity out-of-band in order to have write permissions to the chain. When an account writes, all the readers of the chain have reasonable assurances of the author of that write. No company can inject false state as another company without that company's guarded private key. All transactions are also auditable as an additional assurance the data isn't undergoing a malicious act.

tl;dr; interesting use cases for tamper proof federated ledgers.

[–] wischi@lemmyrs.org 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

IMHO technically speaking the concpt of a Blockchain and decentralized zero trust computing like in Ethereum are indeed "interesting" as concepts.

But in practice there are a ton of issues with current implementations and it's likely not going to be used on a large scale because zero-trust doesn't scale well.

[–] dragontamer@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

It was "interesting" 15 fucking years ago when it came out and we didn't know what it could (or couldn't) do.

15 years later, no one has come up with an application, so I think we can stop pretending that there's a solution here. We're now into "just 5 more years" to figure out a good use of this thing, and no one is any closer to an answer.


15 Years Ago, the Wii U hadn't come out yet and iPhone App store wasn't used yet. Think about how much life has changed, and how little the cryptocoin people moved forward with their tech. Its mind-boggling how much money they've been given and how little progress has been made.

15 years ago when Bitcoin was invented was roughly the launch of Super Smash Bros Brawl and Halo 3, to put this into video-game terms.

[–] manitcor@lemmy.intai.tech 6 points 1 year ago (16 children)

The value is in the forward signed, immutable ledger written by neutral consensus. This can take a lot of form and be the backbone of many types of applications (and already is used by large firms), the current market for direct public ledgers is a mess and I don't generally agree with much of the last craze beyond the fundamentals needed to manage transfers, ownership and executions. The applications that will use these kinds of networks haven't really been built yet.

[–] phillaholic@lemm.ee 8 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Any sources in large firms using it? I haven’t seen anything other than generic marketing talk.

[–] manitcor@lemmy.intai.tech 4 points 1 year ago (7 children)

I can say of the top of my head the JPM and AMEX are running internal ledgers but there are many more, IBM and Accenture co-developed a system called Hyperledger which was given to the Linux Foundation. Its a tool kit for developing and deploying ledger applications primarily targeted at internal corps.

One of the cases these are good for is an easier to manage rights and asset control systems than many products you would pay more for and with less futzing with IAM, LADP or AD.

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[–] dragontamer@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (19 children)

The value is in the forward signed, immutable ledger written by neutral consensus.

I have Excel spreadsheets at home though and you can be assured that they haven't changed if you take a hash of them.

In fact, taking cryptographic hashes and signatures of people is automatic with Adobe signature products, and is how I signed for my house mortgage. You know, things that people really don't want changing or someone doing shenanigans with. Just a click here and a send the .pdf over and... yeah, its not that hard in practice.

Signed, immutable proof of the transaction that nobody can manipulate. It also doesn't require a legion of ASICs hashing numbers until the end of time. Because your "blockchain" is vulnerable to the 51% attack if the hashrate ever declines precipitously.

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[–] WintryLemon@lemmy.world 4 points 1 year ago (2 children)
[–] manitcor@lemmy.intai.tech 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

sorry, gpt said i could do better

A blockchain is like a special notebook that many people can write in. Once something is written, it cannot be changed, and everyone can check that it was written correctly. This notebook help different people or companies work together by writing down and sharing important information in a safe and secure way.

Some people use these special notebooks to make digital money like Bitcoin. But it's just way to use them. Companies also use these notebooks for other things, like making sure their business runs smoothly and securely.

So, the blockchain is not just about digital money, but also a to help people and businesses work together safely and fairly.

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[–] manitcor@lemmy.intai.tech 4 points 1 year ago

https://lemmy.intai.tech/comment/578972

You can also look in my post history, ask away, I'm no fan of where public systems have gone and understand the anger, point is, these techs ARE being used already in corp systems and even if you dont use this crop of chains, you will likely be using a system like this in the future, even if you dont know it.

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[–] MargotRobbie@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

As we see here on the Fediverse, decentralization works fine without monetization using an actively anti-scaling append only database that emits the pollution of a medium sized country.

The only other good thing that came out of it is it increased the prevalence of digital payment system in the world, but I struggle to think of anything that would actually directly benefit from blockchain.

[–] Bishma@discuss.tchncs.de 4 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (2 children)

I've heard of a couple interesting applications (interesting doesn't necessarily mean good)

  1. I've been out of the industry for a couple years, but at the time I left both the US's NAR and CA's CREA were looking to create blockchains that would eventually hold an immutable history of every salable property in North America. The sales pitch is that no one will ever be able to hide things like flood damage or zoning changes if they're all those events are in a trusted database. Carfax, but for buildings.

  2. Several US states with legalized Marijuana have what are known as Seed To Sale laws. One company was trying to move into this space and eventually into all of agriculture. The idea being that if you buy pot scanning a QR code would tell you what clone# the seeds were from, where and when it was planted, what pesticides/herbicides were used on/near it, when it was harvested, any tests it had gone through, etc.

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