"You can have our blessing but only during events that don't even resemble that thing you want to be more equivalent legally to hetero couples."
This just kind of seems disingenious. Like what is he saying? You either condone their marriages or you don't.
It's not disingenious. By the official scriptures, a religious marriage is between a man and a woman. A change like the current one needs already to be accepted by the highest cardinals, that have been in history notoriously fundamentalist.
A religious marriage is still not allowed. But the receiving of an "informal" blessing for future happiness and prosperity now is.
This is a necessary step to slowly allow more, that will come with the slow redefining and adaptation to modern times of the scriptures.
people don't know about Vatican 2 where they finally change mass from Latin to whatever the local language was in FUCKING 1962. I've been to Latin masses. I thought it was cool, but I'm glad they switched. My grandpa complained the church went pop with Vatican 2.
Vatican 2: The Ecumenicalling
adaptation to modern times of the scriptures
The scriptures don't adapt, only their interpretation.
I think I covered this with "redefining"
That's untrue, scriptures have been adapted many many times. There's no one agreed upon definition of what the Bible even is, varying significantly between different sects of Christianity, and even more as we broaden to other Abrahamic religions. There's near endless variations of the different texts. Translation, copying, and selection of which texts to include in a scripture is inevitably bound up in interpretations, they're inseparable. New ideas, biases, agendas, and shifts in meaning will work their way into the translation or copying of older texts or what sources to derive the translations from. Words don't stay the same over time in any language and are constantly shifting in meanings.
Now some religious people may say, God inspires the people who select what religious texts to use, their copying, and their translations, to ensure perfect unchanging meaning over time. But outside of invoking miracles this is an impossibility. But this is what people who take a literal interpretation of the Bible believe.
Barring miracles though, start with development and history section below if interested, but there's countless opportunities for the scriptures to have changed, and they are still changing. There's no way they couldn't, language itself wouldn't let it stay static no matter how much effort is put in to it, not even thinking of all the other factors and agendas that have changed them or what they even consist of many times over thousands of years. There's no one definitive Bible that sprang fully formed out of some vacuum, and even if that somehow occured it'd have to drift overtime with language itself.
Makes you wonder why God has the power to inspire people to correct issues but not the power to stop issues to begin with. Wouldn't an all knowing being know the exact problems his human pets would have?
Ranvier is completely correct. There is no definite version of the bible even if you went back to the original languages. If you add up all the text variations that are known as of today the number exceeds the number of total words in the NT. And when you add in translation issues the problem is endless. Plus all the stuff that looks like it was never in there originally, like the endings of Mark or the Adultress in John. The Bible is like a much dumber version of Wikipedia.
I don't know if you're a Catholic or not, I just want to say more generally - I don't see how any Catholic, including the pope, has the right to opine on the finer points of official scriptures while priests are raping children and the church covers it up.
For this to work you have to take on a catholic perspective. For them a marriage isn’t just a legal affirmation of partnership with tax advantages, it is a clearly defined sacrament that is explicitly for a man and a woman. They can’t just change that, it’s a defined fundamental element of the religion.
This radical change in doctrine (from a catholic perspective) is basically them trying to work around the fixed framework that has no room for interpretation, while still wanting to be more accepting. So they create a second marriage for non heterosexual couples.
As an atheist I must say this seems like a significant step. The church still has numerous flaws and isn’t for me, but I definitely commend this olive branch.
I guess I'm just cynical or something because they need to makeup a new special hang out because the old one is only for people with specific genitals. Its just weird man, that the apparent source of all love would lock it with barbed wire.
Then the religion isn't for you. It's not for me either. The fact that there are so many hoops to jump through, simply to satisfy the world's worst library of Bronze and Iron age fanfic nonsense, makes me shake my head at the whole exercise.
The fact remains though, that it's incredibly important to a lot of people, and if they want to try to square the circle in a way that tends towards justice, then I'm not going to come down hard on them. Pick your battles and whatnot.
Just look at the change that already happened. Just a good decade ago the official catholic position was that non heterosexuals are living in sin and will go to hell, they are not welcome in churches and they won’t be blessed.
Now it’s gods love shows in many ways, he should judge and not the church, and everyone who seeks to be blessed can get officially garried by them in holy gatrimony.
Is it really so bad they try to loophole to stay in line with the scripture?
more equivalent legally
This is a straw man. The pope's decision is about a religious issue, not a legal issue.
Except married couples get legal benefits that actually matter in reality that same-sex couples don't get. So its not a strawman. It is shit that actually happens to real people.
You don't get legal beneficts from having a religious marriage. Only for a legal marriage, that is always possible unless your state is a behind hell hole
Slippery Slope! What's next, being respectful and accepting of people who aren't hurting us??
That doesn't sound Christian to me.
This is a PR move, don't fall for it.
Quotes from the man himself, on how much he actually supports marriage equality and LGBTQ peolle:
"I cannot hide my concern for the family, which is threatened, perhaps as never before, from within and without. Fundamental relationships are being called into question, as is the very basis of marriage and the family. I can only reiterate the importance and, above all, the richness and the beauty of family life."
"What is at stake here is the identity and survival of the family: father, mother, and children. At stake are the lives of so many children who will be discriminated against in advance, depriving them of the human maturation that God wanted to be given with a father and a mother."
"[Marriage equality] is not a political struggle; it is the destructive attempt toward God’s plan."
"”[The push for marriage equality is] the envy of the Devil, by which sin entered the world, which cunningly seeks to destroy the image of God."
Don't fall for their lies.
Yep - this is just derogatory and demeaning, underlining the exclusion in order to make it hurt more.
If anyone doesn't see it - just replace 'same-sex' with 'black'.
Fine, we'll let you in the building, but only in the basement, and you don't touch anything the white folk might want to use.
Sky daddy says it’s cool as long as it doesn’t look like one of Sky-Daddy-Approved™️ shows
Don't worry, officer. I'm not buying poppers and bongs, I'm buying videotape head cleaner and water pipes. Totally different.
Church: since gay people should properly be seeking God's mercy, we will now choose not to subject the gays to an exhaustive moral analysis, (that anyway if performed, would of course find them lacking). With that in mind, please feel free to approach your priest and request his blessing!
What a fucking insult.
They're so close to getting it. All they needed to say was "None of us are born without sin, and it is no person's position to judge and condemn others. Thus, we will marry any two individuals who show the same enduring love for each other as our lord and savior --"
Etc etc.
I see what you mean, but I disagree that this is a misfire or miscalculation on the church's part. This latest development reads as another jab at gay people, from a familiar angle. It's a reaffirmation by the church that same sex couples who love each other aren't seen as equals in a congregation.
If this isn't the definition of "too little too late", I don't know what is.
📉
I, the loud proud atheist, have literally been to a religious services more the past year (a memorial service, relative of my wife) than the typical American adult.
The world is getting better in a few ways.
Awaiting U.S. Bishops to refuse to allow this.
Instead of being referred to as “married” you can be butt buddies!
"Sorry man, you can't get married but good luck.
P.S; you're going to hell"
"Leader of world's largest known pedophile group says it's ok to bless the gays so long as they don't pretend like it's a wedding"
Okay, whatever.
Let's say I create a club (I'm picturing Calvin's "Girl Haters" club). I can make whatever rules I want for my club. I can define ceremonies and rituals, and I can kick anyone out who doesn't follow my rules. What I can't do is tell anyone else what they can do.
So the Pope can say whatever he wants about what it means to be Catholic, but only Catholics should care.
I'd agree with you but for the fact that the Catholic Church has historically spent a ton of money lobbying to keep same-sex marriage illegal.
The Catholic Church is very much a political institution.
It would be nice if we didn't have to pay attention to regressive extremists, but they are unfortunately very influential.
I get where you're coming from. At the same time, they are such a large club that this will impact many people....some members of the club hold political positions around the world, for instance.
Yep, true enough. The first part I don't care to much about - if your club has rules you don't like, leave the club. The second part is problematic because some clubs think even non-members should follow their rules.
Sounds like the Pope needs to mind his own fucking business.
How generous.
Archbishop Handwich is now offering blessings for the low, low price of $9.95. Act now and get free chips and pickle!
A community for discussing events around the World
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/