this post was submitted on 17 Nov 2023
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    [–] sederx@programming.dev 120 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    But new users don't even know what snaps are. They don't care. We care because we are crazy bastards

    [–] ivanafterall@kbin.social 42 points 11 months ago (7 children)
    [–] IHeartBadCode@kbin.social 83 points 11 months ago (7 children)

    I am so sorry this got so long. I'm absolutely horrible at brevity.

    Applications use things called libraries to provide particular functions rather than implement those functions themselves. So like "handle HTTP request" as an example, you can just use a HTTP library to handle it for you so you can focus on developing your application.

    As time progresses, libraries change and release new versions. Most of the time one version is compatible with the other. Sometimes, especially when there is a major version change, the two version are incompatible. If an application relied on that library and a major incompatible change was made, the application also needs to be changed for the new version of the library.

    A Linux distro usually selects the version of each library that they are going to ship with their release and maintain it via updates. However, your distro provider and some neat program you might use are usually two different people. So the neat program you use might have change their application to be compatible with a library that might not make it into your distro until next release.

    At that point you have one of two options. Wait until your distro provides the updated library or the go it alone route of you updating your own library (which libraries can depend on other libraries, which means you could be opening a whole Pandora's box here). The go it alone route also means that you have to turn off your distro's updates because they'll just overwrite everything you've done library wise.

    This is where snaps, flatpaks, and appimages come into play. In a very basic sense, they provide a means for a program to include all the libraries it'll need to run, without those libraries conflicting with your current setup from the distro. You might hear them as "containerized programs", however, they're not exactly the Docker style "container", but from an isolating perspective, that's mostly correct. So your neat application that relies on the newest libraries, they can be put into a snap, flatpak, or appimage and you can run that program with those new libraries no need for your distro to provide them or for you to go it alone.

    I won't bore you on the technical difference between the formats, but just mostly focus on what I usually hear is the objectionable issue with snaps. Snaps is a format that is developed by Canonical. All of these formats have a means of distribution, that is how do you get the program to install and how it is updated. Because you know, getting regular updates of your program is still really important. With snaps, Canonical uses a cryptographic signature to indicate that the distribution of the program has come from their "Snaps Store". And that's the main issue folks have taken with snaps.

    So unlike the other kinds of formats, snaps are only really useful when they are acquired from the Canonical Snaps Store. You can bypass the checking of the cryptographic signature via the command line, but Ubuntu will not automatically check for updates on software installed via that method, you must check for updates manually. In contrast, anyone can build and maintain their own flatpak "store" or central repository. Only Canonical can distribute snaps and provide all of the nice features of distribution like automatic updates.

    So that's the main gripe, there's technical issues as well between the formats which I won't get into. But the main high level argument is the conflicting ideas of "open and free to all" that is usually associated with the Linux group (and FOSS [Free and open-source software] in general) and the "only Canonical can distribute" that comes with snaps. So as @sederx indicated, if that's not an argument that resonates with you, the debate is pretty moot.

    There's some user level difference like some snaps can run a bit slower than a native program, but Canonical has updated things with snaps to address some of that. Flatpak sandboxing can make it difficult to access files on your system, but flatpak permissions can be edited with things like Flatseal. Etc. It's what I would file into the "papercut" box of problems. But for some, those papercuts matter and ultimately turn people off from the whole Linux thing. So there's arguments that come from that as well, but that's so universal "just different in how the papercut happens" that I just file that as a debate between container and native applications, rather a debate about formats.

    [–] Agent641@lemmy.world 18 points 11 months ago (1 children)
    [–] DerisionConsulting@lemmy.ca 10 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago)

    Take that person's post, comparing it to cooking.

    Sometimes you use a ~~Library~~ pre-made sauce or spice blend as part of a recipe, so you don't need to waste time remaking something that is commonly used.

    Every so often, a company will tweak the recipe for the things you are using, but it still basically tastes the same. Sometimes they just decide that now it's salty instead of sweet, so it would complete ruin the dish you would like to make.

    The recipe you are using assumes you live in Australia where the new version of the sauce/spice blend is more common, but where you live still only sells the old version.

    So now you can either wait for the store to sell the new sauce/spice blend, import it from Australia, or try to make it yourself. But you might have another recipe that still needs/uses the old sauce/spice blend. Needing to have both can lead to issues where you use the wrong one, ruining the food you are trying to make.

    This is where ~~snaps, flatpaks, and appimages~~ those dish-in-a-box kits come into play. They'll have the correct version of the spices/sauces you want, so it doesn't really matter which version you have in your kitchen.

    Snaps branded dish-in-a-box kits are developed by Canonical, and they can be kinda weird. You need to check ~~for updates~~ if you need to re-buy them manually, and you can only get them from the "Snaps Store". Other dish-in-a-box kits allow you to get them from whichever store you want, and will automatically re-order when needed.

    And that’s the main issue folks have taken with snaps. If you ~~have 50+ programs~~ are making a meal with 50+ dishes, and you need to constantly check if you need to rebuy them one by one, it gets old quickly.


    Also, Snaps takes up a lot of room, and generally just kinda suck compared to installing things normally or through flatpack.

    [–] Lmaydev@programming.dev 18 points 11 months ago (1 children)

    Sounds like docker with a load of extra steps.

    [–] LordOfTheChia@lemmy.world 19 points 11 months ago

    I think of snap and flatpack as docker containers but for GUI apps.

    There's more differences of course, but I take that as the gist.

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    [–] AFLYINTOASTER@lemmy.world 27 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Here friend, I also didn't know

    Snap is a software packaging and deployment system developed by Canonical for operating systems that use the Linux kernel and the systemd init system. The packages, called snaps, and the tool for using them, snapd, work across a range of Linux distributions[3] and allow upstream software developers to distribute their applications directly to users. Snaps are self-contained applications running in a sandbox with mediated access to the host system. Snap was originally released for cloud applications[4] but was later ported to also work for Internet of Things devices[5][6] and desktop[7][8] applications.

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    [–] fraydabson@sopuli.xyz 15 points 11 months ago (1 children)

    The problem is they don’t care until it becomes an issue which by then becomes harder to fix. I also just really hate snap lol

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    [–] Jumuta@sh.itjust.works 8 points 11 months ago (8 children)

    I think they would care if they knew the benefits of not having snaps.

    There's little to no advantage in having them, so why have them?

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    [–] Molten_Moron@lemmings.world 37 points 11 months ago (6 children)

    I recently started using Mint after years on Debian.

    I may be weird here, but it has quickly become my favorite distro.

    It's snappy and super user-friendly, plus it's been de-Ubuntu-d. Out of the box Flatpak support is just nice to have, and Cinnamon is a sweet de.

    [–] digger@lemmy.ca 16 points 11 months ago (1 children)

    I've done my fair share of distro hopping. Mint is the distribution that I have to do the least amount of configuring starting from a clean install.

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    [–] Bruncvik@lemmy.world 10 points 11 months ago

    I use Mint, and I found that it's the best distro for introducing my family to Linux. Those who tried it never asked for their Windows back.

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    [–] Sir_Simon_Spamalot@lemmy.world 35 points 11 months ago (1 children)

    Jokes aside, this kind of gatekeeping behavior is what gives Linux a bad name. Also, you don't have to be a beginner to love Linux Mint.

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    [–] JCreazy@midwest.social 25 points 11 months ago

    I was running Linux Mint until the other day when I found out Linux Mint Debian Edition existed so I installed that. I'm a recent Linux convert and I can safely say that Lemmy might have partially been the reason. I've been loving it so far.

    [–] pineapplelover@lemm.ee 25 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)

    There's actually linux mint debian edition rather than ubuntu edition

    https://www.linuxmint.com/download_lmde.php

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    [–] dirtySourdough@lemmy.world 19 points 11 months ago (1 children)

    Mint is great. I love it when shit just works.

    [–] TwoBeeSan@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago

    Todd Howard Approved™️

    [–] fl42v@lemmy.ml 15 points 11 months ago

    Quit Linux? More like quit [non-server revisions of] Ubuntu... Besides, I somehow have an impression that preinstalled crap is among the popular reasons to why ppl leave windows

    [–] HiddenLayer5@lemmy.ml 14 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (4 children)

    Out of the mainstream distros what might end up getting bought by Google or even Microsoft, Ubuntu seems to me like the most likely candidate.

    I mean, RedHat was once the even more likely candidate, but

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    [–] Underwaterbob@lemm.ee 14 points 11 months ago (1 children)

    All the talk of Mint lately. Looks like my fifteen-year Ubuntu streak may be coming to an end. Will I, decidedly not a power-user just an Internet browser, occasional game player, Csound programmer, Libreoffice user notice a difference? Is Mint better at printing? That's the only real problem I've had with Ubuntu over the years.

    [–] Johanno@feddit.de 7 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (1 children)

    In my experience Linux is better at printing than windows. Especially debian based distros.

    However you can just Google your printer and see if there are issues.

    Edit: can't read. I don't know if there will be any change on printing since mint really just removes snap and Ubuntu stuff and adds flatpak and a few smaller details.

    [–] Underwaterbob@lemm.ee 7 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    It was weird. Ubuntu 18.04 LTS printed perfectly. First try, every time. Barring printer issues not related to the OS anyway. Then, 20.04 dropped, and I couldn't print anything. For two years, I had to move files to the Mac on the front desk to print at work because it refused to print anything. Same printer. I tried a few fixes people had posted, but none worked for me, and most fixes were for HP printers and mine is an Epson, which no one reported any problems with.

    Now, with 22.04, I get intermittent printing. It works more often than not, but I'd estimate my print jobs get randomly canceled about 30% of the time. Which is annoying, but not deal-breaking since I usually just push it through again, and it works. To be fair, it might be because of wireless printing, but I doubt it since like I said, 18.04 worked flawlessly with the exact same setup. I might just try out Mint sometime and see if it makes a difference.

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    [–] SaltyIceteaMaker@lemmy.ml 13 points 11 months ago* (last edited 11 months ago) (5 children)

    Snaps:

    On server = good

    On PC = bad

    [–] SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 19 points 11 months ago

    Hell no. I can't have my server updating itself without explicit approval, randomly breaking shit at any hour of the day.

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    [–] electric_nan@lemmy.ml 12 points 11 months ago

    You don't have to be a beginner to love Mint. I am very happy that they are putting more energy into the Debian edition. I've tried lots of other distros over the years, and I am just comfortable in Mint.

    [–] Brekky@lemmy.world 11 points 11 months ago (5 children)

    What are snaps and telemetry?

    [–] OsrsNeedsF2P@lemmy.ml 8 points 11 months ago (1 children)

    Snaps are a package format that handle dependencies differently. People don't like them because of increased startup time.

    Telemetry is when software sends analytics back to the parent company. Ubuntu does very basic telemetry, but people like to compare it to Windows

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    [–] queue@lemmy.blahaj.zone 11 points 11 months ago (1 children)

    Linux Mint has a Debian edition available, I'm curious about that one.

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    [–] chicken@lemmy.dbzer0.com 11 points 11 months ago

    Still using Mint, see no reason to change

    [–] Kushia@lemmy.ml 11 points 11 months ago (13 children)

    Best distro imo right now for desktop. Fedora a close second.

    Others like Arch are great too but more for enthusiasts.

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    [–] scottywh@lemmy.world 10 points 11 months ago (2 children)

    Mint with Maté gets no love but it's so fucking great.

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    [–] TimeSquirrel@kbin.social 10 points 11 months ago (10 children)

    And both of them are just remixes of Debian. So why not just use the base distro for all of them?

    [–] EuroNutellaMan@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago (1 children)

    Debian is not a good distro for the tech illiterate. The point of Linux Mint is to be a good entry point for people to Linux, some will stick to it and that's fair cause it's a good distro, some may move past it. Debian isn't very friendly to noobs. Ubuntu is just garbage, I'd love it to be good but snaps are just that awful.

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    [–] eddanja@lemmy.world 9 points 11 months ago

    LMDE and Flatpaks for daily apps.

    [–] Exusia@lemmy.world 8 points 11 months ago (9 children)

    I like the idea of switching to Linux to break the strangle of windows on my hardware but I don't know if all my games on Steam, Wargamings launcher and Automatic1111 will work properly if I made that switch. I installed Mint for a friend because I'm semi-literate and feel like messing with that....cmd window "terminal" to do...literally anything installation wise would get irritating.

    I want a Linux that is as easy to use out of the box as windows. Will Mint be that way or will I have to spend 5 hours figuring out special words for commands any time I want to install something?

    [–] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 9 points 11 months ago (4 children)

    I've been using Linux Mint as a daily driver for ten years now.

    I personally find Linux Mint to be easier to use than Windows out of the box. For example, you probably don't have to worry about drivers at all; AMD Radeon drivers for example are built right into the kernel, they "just work." In Windows, you have to go out to AMD's website, download and install them.

    Linux has an app-store like system called a package manager. Most--including Linux Mint--have graphical ones that work just like the Play Store on Android does, except everything that's in there is free. On a Mint machine, you open the App Menu, go to Administration > Software Manager. To install Steam, you search for "steam" in the box in the top right, and you'll recognize the logo.

    This same task can be done from the terminal. You can open the terminal and type sudo apt install steam

    I will use both approaches depending on what I'm doing at the time. Like for example, it's faster to install multiple programs via the terminal. sudo apt install steam obs blender audacity gimp shotcut inkscape would install all those apps in one big thing, no need to sit there clicking through the app store.

    Linux Mint won't require use of the terminal very often, it has GUI menus and utilities for most things you'll likely want to do. Sometimes, using the terminal is faster, easier, or more convenient, or just more fun. Yeah there's fun to be had in the terminal. Get on Youtube and look up what "cowsay" does.

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    [–] demystify@lemmy.ml 7 points 11 months ago (3 children)

    Can you opt out of snap on Ubuntu? I've heard some system and essential apps use it, so it might break stuff if you do

    [–] Silejonu@kbin.social 9 points 11 months ago

    If you're basically recreating Linux Mint from scratch, yes.

    Linux can be heavily modified, and removing Snap from Ubuntu is no exception. But it's an involved process.

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    [–] joyjoy@lemm.ee 7 points 11 months ago

    Wait, people think anything besides an official Ubuntu flavor is leaving Linux?

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