this post was submitted on 01 Oct 2024
651 points (95.1% liked)
Technology
60035 readers
2767 users here now
This is a most excellent place for technology news and articles.
Our Rules
- Follow the lemmy.world rules.
- Only tech related content.
- Be excellent to each another!
- Mod approved content bots can post up to 10 articles per day.
- Threads asking for personal tech support may be deleted.
- Politics threads may be removed.
- No memes allowed as posts, OK to post as comments.
- Only approved bots from the list below, to ask if your bot can be added please contact us.
- Check for duplicates before posting, duplicates may be removed
Approved Bots
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
My car isn’t driverless, but I as the driver have less control than ever before.
It’s an EV, and it will not shift to drive or reverse if the charging cable is attached.
Great for preventing me from destroying a charger. Terrible for getting away from someone trying to mug me.
Far too much of the safety features these days assume an environment in which all harm is accidental. This comes at the cost of safety in environments where someone is trying to harm another person.
This is the seatbelt argument all over again. The safety features protect people in the majority of scenarios. While there may be scenarios where it does more harm than good, they are rare. You’re much safer with the safety feature.
I don't think there is a car where the seat belt is tied to anything besides a little notification beep. Seems like a different situation if the "safety" feature dictates how the car is used.
Seatbelts are legally mandated. When that was going through, some people argued against that requirement on the grounds that there edge cases where it dies more harm than good.
Just like the case here, those edge cases are vanishingly rare.
Note: my car won’t move without a seatbelt, but it’s an EV so furthers the argument that EVs are taking control from the driver.
Fair point then about the arguement around safety. For me the bigger issue is control. Cars with kill switches and conditions to use is a slippery slope. Just look at what's happened with software and media. Don't want to have to pirate my car or load custom firmware so I can use it as I want.
You don't complain about having to open your door or start the engine when escaping a threat.
Having to unplug a cable during a very specific, imagined threat seems like a niche problem.
Additionally: if you're at a gas station filling an ICE vehicle and you get mugged, and you panic and peel out, there's gas going everywhere, plenty of potential ignition sources etc.
The argument "I have more control and agency therefore I am quantifiably safer" can fuck alllllll the way off. Safety regulations are written in blood.
The difference being that not being able to start the motor with the door open is only a problem if the driver was being attacked in a parking lot.
It's not too big of a leap to imagine a world where a person could immobilize a car at a red light with the plug cut off from a public charger. Wall up to a stopped car, open the hatch (maybe it needs a pry bar) and put the dummy plug in. Now the car is immobilized. Smash the driver side window and they're in business.
Sure, there are some safeguards that can be added like requiring a current to immobilize the vehicle, but it's far from the simplest or safest answer. Car manufacturers need to stop putting in hard limits and just use alarms instead. I bought a new Subaru that has collision detection standard. The hedge next to my driveway was overgrown, but I drove right through it. The car sounded an alarm and flashed a bunch of lights, but it didn't engage the brakes, I was able to blast through an obstacle that I knew was minor even though the car thought it was a threat. If a manufacturer feels compelled to add a safety system, it's possible to do so without taking control away from the driver.
I think it is. I'd like to see at least one documented case of this happening before people start demanding that cars be able to move while plugged in. Plus, in the very scenario you describe, the car would still be able to move, no? Attaching a charger does nothing unless you're changing to parked at every red light.
The only time you'd need to drive away while charging is if the attacker walks up while you're sitting in your parked car, or kindly decides to let you get in before doing anything.
I can't find a single instance of someone being unable to escape because of their charger, so maybe let's worry about it if it ever becomes a problem.
Sounds like a lot of hassle. If they want to immoblise a self driving car they just stand in front of it.
Why carry a plug cut off from a public charger when you can just stab the tyres?
Use the pry bar to smash the window and open the door. Not open the charging port.
It's about hitting electric cars, self driving or otherwise.
Cars can still move with punctured tires, at least far enough that a would-be robber or carjacker could get dragged a good distance.
You smash the window and open the door. Now the panicked driver is speeding away, leaving you high and dry or dragging you along.
Being able to completely immobilize a vehicle while keeping it intact is a criminal's wet dream. It's incumbent on car manufacturers to consider that while implementing safety features.
It's been a reality for over a decade.
https://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/
My point is that plugging in a charging cable is way down the list of attacker tools.
Sure, but it's on the list.
If it saves even one human life it's worth switching to an alarm instead of immobilization, even if that means hundreds of breakaway cables get snapped by morons driving away from chargers.
What if hundreds of lives are lost due to broken cables snapped by morons driving away from chargers?
How the fuck do you think gas pumps work?
I'm done feeding the trolls.
Gas pumps are something you’re doing “right now”, so you ought to remember. Vs a charging cable s something you plugged in last night and left that way. Much easier to forget.
You’re very unlikely to change drivers at a gas pump so you probably won’t forget. Vs a charging cable is something your spouse may or may not have plugged in last night, and they’re not necessarily there to remember.
It’s been a long time since I’ve seen a gas pump with trigger lock. You have to be actively involved with pumping gas, holding it the whole time, so unlikely to forget
So we are agreed. Immobilize vehicles both when they are charging and refuelling.
How would they open the charge port door? I can still imagine it because I have a good imagination but it’s just not going to happen.
Is someone really going to go through the trouble of carrying a cut off cable and a piece of electronics to open the charge port, and have time to walk up to the car click to open, wait for the door to open and insert the cable? There are faster and easier ways to immobilize a car, why would anyone make it so complicated?
And that assumes that safety feature is still engaged when you’re already driving
Pry bar to open the hatch, like I said.
And yes, today people are walking around with angle grinders to chop off catalytic converters.
Not at a stop light, nor as a way to immobilize you. While they can steal your catalytic converter surprisingly quickly, they’ll look for a minute or two of quiet time to slide under your car.