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Big publishers ‘eject too soon’ from live service titles, says Warframe boss. “It comes out, doesn’t work and they throw it away”
(www.videogameschronicle.com)
this post was submitted on 22 Jul 2024
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Hey, at least it's not P2W... right?
You can buy weapons and prime frames, so I guess it depends on your definition of "win" but I'd argue that yes, technically it does. The larger issue of WF however are the layers of FOMO they have that turn the entire game into a job / chore that you have to attend daily, which is ultimately why I left it, even though the core gameplay itself is definitely fun. Frankly why I probably won't play their other game either because it is almost certainly going to follow the same live service formula as WF.
It would be nice if games didn't maliciously try to put hooks into players at every turn. But you can learn to balance it.
I have a Dojo with just my group of friends. We build it out with just what we need to progress. We play for like a month every few years, when the itch hits.
I agree with most of the stuff you've said expect the FOMO bit - there are three very specific items that are never coming back for obvious reasons, which are irrelevant to the overall story and hardly affect anyone's enjoyment of the game. Every other item has eventually come back.
Edit: on a second read, you mentioned the game is P2W. That's definitely a way to say you've not played the game, so now I'm angry I spent half a minute writing my comment.
My playtime for WF is in the 4 digits and I was at a fairly high rank at the time, but thanks for the attempt to dismiss my points. Yes, being able to directly buy equipment is the very definition of pay to win. And yes, the game is several layers of FOMO, regardless of your denial. One being artifacts / vaulting, which is a way to keep you log in and grind specific garbage missions. If you don't, or if you're plain unlucky, you miss your chance for many months (unless you pay of course). Another are the various faction caps, which there are many, again to keep you logging in to grind it up. If you don't, you won't be able to keep up with the reputation that is needed to progress through various gear to progress through various content. This was all already bad enough, but the fucking cherry on top of that was adding their form of a FrEe battle pass, as if that's somehow a good thing. Yes, now the game dictates even more what you have to do (and where), instead of letting you do what you want to do. Because if you don't, you won't progress through the tedious, grindy and completely brain dead battle pass journey, missing all the rewards. "BuT DaRkThOuGhTs, ThOsE ReWaRdS cAn Be EaRnEd EvEn In LaTeR sEaSoNs!" No. Just no. You're just adding more chores to the already way too long list of completely pointless and dumb chores. That's not making it better, it's making it even worse, because you're just increasing the list of shit you can't get. Luring people in artificially like this, by triggering their FOMO, are predatory dark patterns. If you want me to keep coming back to play your game, then just provide a fucking enjoyable experience. All those things do exactly the opposite of that, and thus I quit.
Also 4 digits playtime here, but that is irrelevant.
You're not wrong, but you are confusing dark patterns with p2w. Sadly they all do dark patterns now. Even Deep Rock Galactic is loaded with them.
I'm not confusing the two at all. https://www.howtogeek.com/771884/what-is-a-pay-to-win-game/
Sad to hear about Deep Rock Galactic. Never appealed to me with the cartoon graphics, but I always heard how it was such a good example of a model and how they'd add their seasonal rewards simply into the regular loot / rewards, making them easily accessible for those who missed it.
Its the same mechanic you describe above.
If you miss it in the free battlepass, it comes back later in a random chance per mission to get a single drop.
You're arguing in bad faith by praising DRG for using the exact same system Warframe uses.
No? In WF you can only get them through Nightwave, you are not getting them through regular gameplay. You have to explicitly do Nightwave, whether you want to or not. Otherwise you'll not get the rewards and they'll pile up more and more the longer you are not doing it.
You're projecting. But thanks for outing yourself already, that saves us both time.
Which is absolutely different from the actual predatory FOMO mechanics that are in place in many other MMOs. You seem to be overlooking the fact that, again, all those items are coming back eventually to the game.
If anything, you could have made a case for vaulting well before relics were introduced into the game and I'd have completely agreed. This is not the case for many years now.
You also mention "faction caps", which have absolutely nothing to do with FOMO, as their rewards don't rotate, again, except for relic packs.
You are pointing out generalities that are defeated by a cursory play through. For starters, Nora Night does not stop your progress whatsoever nor does it add any impressive improvements to your play through. Furthermore, some of the tasks are done automatically (bullet jumping, killing enemies, completing missions). Finally, most of the rewards are alternative (cosmetic) helmets, and again other cosmetic goodies.
You could have made a point of the arcane Warframe helmets, which modified some stats of your Warframe and were taken back in favor of streamlining the Arcane system. I could have maybe agreed that that's a form of FOMO, if you really wanted to min-max your strategy.
Finally, the "cherry on top", as you'd put it, is the fact that you talk of yourself as having been "fairly high rank". Everyone and their mother knows that mastery rank provides little to no insights as to your skills, just the fact that you spent time leveling weapons.
For all these reasons, especially your failure to acknowledge the fact that there were FOMO mechanics that are no more for many years, allow me again to dismiss your alleged game experience. It clearly is not showing in the way you write any of your arguments.
Completely irrelevant as long as it triggers FOMO. Honestly, in general "other's do it worse" is just not a good argument to make, ever. But it is a very typical one of people like you who excuse such practices because they like the game and see any criticism on it as a personal insult.
No? The multi layered RNG aspect of relics literally makes it even worse. RNG on whether you even get relics in the first place while you grind, and then another layer of RNG on whether you get the reward that you want out of them. I went through years of missing out on certain parts because of this.
It's a predatory tactic to keep you in the game. Learn to read.
Who the fucking shit talks about SKILL?! What in the flying fuck are you actually on about? You gotta be trolling or fucking dense. The whole point was to provide context for my playtime, which you yourself were just questioning in your earlier comment. WF has never had anything to do with skill, but I guess you had to prepare for some 1337HaXXoR shit in your next comment or something.
I'm not gonna bother with the rest of your non argument text wall that clearly conflates P2W with FOMO and other points and throws around underhanded insults. Maybe try to focus a bit the next time you try to argue with people because this is just unhinged and weird.
I'm out.
Nah man, that's exactly what FOMO is.
You're not missing out, because it's coming back.
Telling you when to play content is the definition of FOMO.
"You can only play this content on Sundays, but it will be available every Sunday forever" is always FOMO and always predatory.
Yup, let's redefine stuff.
I'm not re-defining anything.
Anything that meets that definition is always FOMO. Anything that does not meet that definition cannot possibly be. FOMO is controlling when players are allowed to experience(/buy) content in order to force them to play when you want them to. Any intentional time limited window is absolutely always FOMO.
Until it's gone again
...and it eventually returns.
Until it's gone again. It does come back but you could miss out till then. Hence "fear of missing out". I feel like you're purposefully ignoring that it is FOMO.
You're not missing out if it's coming back again - for instance, fear of missing out summer makes no sense.
Missing out Halley's comet, on the other hand...
I hope that clears up your confusion.
These are false equivalencies. Why not make them available all the time? Have you ever asked why they don't? Because them going away for an unknown time drives purchases. Now why does it drive purchases? Because people are afraid of missing it. You can get it eventually sure, your just punished for not getting it then and have to wait. It's textbook FOMO marketing, saying it's not is just silly.
A lot of people struggle to understand that a lot of the fun of warframe is in the progression. There really isn't a lot to do that's interesting when you get into the endgame, so paying to progress faster ultimately takes away some of that fun.
Now, there is plenty of fun to be had building and trying out new weapons, but that does get old without a goal to reach for while using them.
Also, very few people actually play the PVP mode. I've never touched it myself and I'm in the endgame.
So from an outsider who doesn't understand this, they see that players can pay to progress faster and think it's pay to win - because in most games it is.
It's Pay 2 Win, not Pay 2 Fun. For everything else, see my other comment.
Depending on your definition "pay to skip" = "pay to win".
FOMO is damn near gone from Warframe now, aside from Baro. I've been playing for over 8 years.
Since when?
Since Prime Resurgence, Nightwave rework, Baro Tennocon relay and cyclic event schedules. The only way to truly miss something in this game is to willfully ignore it.
I don't know if there was another nightwave rework, but he one somewhat shortly after its release definitely did not change anything about the fundamental core issues of the whole thing. Baro isn't new and prime resurgence sounds like yet another grind layer, but their description is too obtuse to really understand anything.
Prime resurgence is a less predatory version of prime vault. It allows free players easier and more precise access to unvaulted items, including armor and accessories that were previously impossible to get as a free player.
See the price drop for Glaive Prime today. Dropped off a cliff because its unvaulted.
Huh? I thought vaulting wasn't a thing anymore since they removed all FOMO mechanics? What an absolute troll.
You're confusing me with someone else. Havent talked about FOMO in warframe with you.
FOMO in warframe is events like the just finished Jade Shadows, one offs like Scarlet Spear or the (very) infrequently run Plague Star.
We are in agreement about DE uses Dark Patterns, you're just more jaded than I am. Calling it p2w though is a stretch IMO.
I'm not confusing you, you're replying to the comment chain where we are talking about FOMO mechanics being removed. You were literally adding to that discussion.
Yet another troll. Gotcha. Reported.
It arguably isn't anymore, although it looks like it is. Yes, you can buy prime frames and weapons, but can't buy the mods or arcanes directly from the game to outfit them. Even then, prime weapons on their own are not the best in the game by a long shot, and a prime warframe does not guarantee it being "meta".
The weapons that are the best are locked behind story quests, and even once you unlock one of those vendors, only one of them that you can buy with platinum is any good.
They were considering adding a destiny style story skip, but when they asked for feedback it was so negative they immediately relented.
How is this not the opposite of a pay to win mechanic? Either you play the game to find the mod or find someone to buy the mod from.
An even cooler thing is operator progress, whereby no amount of paying can take you through.
The whole prime access is a p2w mechanic that prior to Liches was arguably considerably more important.
Now with Lich, Sister and Railjack weapons that are all play-only access.
Galvanized and Prime mods you can't p2w.
Nevermind the whole Steel Path and incarnon adapters, where while a small set is plat available, and the only good weapon in that set is the Angstrum, and aforementioned Galvanized mods.
I don’t 100% agree with prime access being pay to win. It’s mostly pay to skip, you can use your platinum to buy pieces from other players for normally far less than the frame and weapons in access as well. I spent 5 bucks to get a protea prime from a clan mate knowing I wouldn’t have time to grind her and had tons of platinum (premium currency) from other trades with players. And I’m really bad at trading with players.
It helps that it's not really pvp focused or competetively co-op.