this post was submitted on 30 May 2024
52 points (82.5% liked)

Fuck Cars

9603 readers
584 users here now

A place to discuss problems of car centric infrastructure or how it hurts us all. Let's explore the bad world of Cars!

Rules

1. Be CivilYou may not agree on ideas, but please do not be needlessly rude or insulting to other people in this community.

2. No hate speechDon't discriminate or disparage people on the basis of sex, gender, race, ethnicity, nationality, religion, or sexuality.

3. Don't harass peopleDon't follow people you disagree with into multiple threads or into PMs to insult, disparage, or otherwise attack them. And certainly don't doxx any non-public figures.

4. Stay on topicThis community is about cars, their externalities in society, car-dependency, and solutions to these.

5. No repostsDo not repost content that has already been posted in this community.

Moderator discretion will be used to judge reports with regard to the above rules.

Posting Guidelines

In the absence of a flair system on lemmy yet, let’s try to make it easier to scan through posts by type in here by using tags:

Recommended communities:

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
 

Cross-posted from: https://sh.itjust.works/post/20086798


During 2013–2017, casualty rates per 100 million miles were 5.16 (95% CI 4.92 to 5.42) for E- HE vehicles and 2.40 (95%CI 2.38 to 2.41) for ICE vehicles, indicating that collisions were twice as likely (RR 2.15; 95% CI 2.05 to 2.26) with E-HE vehicles. Poisson regression found no evidence that E-HE vehicles were more dangerous in rural environments (RR 0.91; 95% CI 0.74 to 1.11); but strong evidence that E-HE vehicles were three times more dangerous than ICE vehicles in urban environments (RR 2.97; 95% CI 2.41 to 3.7). Sensitivity analyses of missing data support main findings.


  • "Pedestrian safety on the road to net zero: cross-sectional study of collisions with electric and hybrid-electric cars in Great Britain". Phil J Edwards, Siobhan Moore, Craig Higgins. 2024-05-21. J Epidemiol Community Health.
  • [PDF] (archive)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
[–] Windex007@lemmy.world 25 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Because of how much quieter they are?

[–] Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works 29 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (4 children)

One plausible explanation for our results is that background ambient noise levels differ between urban and rural areas, causing electric vehicles to be less audible to pedestrians in urban areas. Such differences may impact on safety because pedestrians usually hear traffic approaching and take care to avoid any collision, which is more difficult if they do not hear electric vehicles.

[–] then_three_more@lemmy.world 20 points 5 months ago (1 children)

That doesn't make much sense. ICE vehicles have got so quiet, especially at low speeds, that most of the noise is tyre noise.

There were far fewer models of electric and and h-ev cars being available during the time of they've taken their data from (7 to 11 years ago now) than ICE and even compared to how many there are now. Therefore it's entirely possible that an issue with a particular model (for example visibility issues caused by a pillar blindspots) could skew the results.

It would be interesting to see if they can get the same results with 2019-2024 data.

[–] Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works 4 points 5 months ago

That doesn’t make much sense. ICE vehicles have got so quiet, especially at low speeds, that most of the noise is tyre noise.

What doesn't make sense? The point that you just stated was precisely the motivation for the study — there was a concern that EVs and H-EVs are too quiet to be safely perceived by pedestrians.

There were far fewer models of electric and and h-ev cars being available during the time of they’ve taken their data from (7 to 11 years ago now) than ICE and even compared to how many there are now. Therefore it’s entirely possible that an issue with a particular model (for example visibility issues caused by a pillar blindspots) could skew the results.

In the "Strengths and weaknesses of the study" section of the paper, they touched on the age of the data being a weakness. In addition to the concern that you pointed out, there are also new regulations that have been put in place to mitigate these issues — e.g. the NHTSA mandates that cars have a minimum amount of sound that they must emit [source].

It would be interesting to see if they can get the same results with 2019-2024 data.

Agreed.

[–] Technus@lemmy.zip 9 points 5 months ago (2 children)

This is why I want an electric car that makes a jet turbine noise like the cars do in sci-fi movies.

[–] Takios@discuss.tchncs.de 11 points 5 months ago (1 children)

EVs being quieter than ICE cars is a blessing imho. I'm not completely against having them emit additional sound for safety but please let it still be quieter than an ICE.

[–] Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works 9 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Anecdotally, I've heard some newer EVs emit a sort of whirring sound when they are moving slowly to alert pedestrians.

[–] robolemmy@lemmy.world 11 points 5 months ago (1 children)

It’s mandatory in the US but they all make various weird noises that don’t sound like cars.

[–] Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works 0 points 5 months ago (1 children)
[–] Ebby@lemmy.ssba.com 5 points 5 months ago

Note that is 2016.

I have a Hybrid built before 2016 that plays no noise. We are out there... lurking, sneaking, ready to pounce.

[–] Technus@lemmy.zip 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

I have heard this as well. IMO it's much too quiet still. I want like, an actual jet engine whine but at maybe 65-70 decibels.

[–] snooggums@midwest.social 7 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (1 children)

No thanks, electric vehicles being quiet is a bonus.

Now if they had the forward sensors made a moderate lebel honking noise when a potential collision with a oedestrian is detected, that would be great.

[–] Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works 3 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

No thanks, electric vehicles being quiet is a bonus.

Now if they had the forward sensors made a moderate lebel honking noise when a potential collision with a oedestrian is detected, that would be great.

Personally, I'm not bothered by the sounds that EVs emit at slow speeds (the minimum sound is required by the NHTSA) — I think they even sound kind of cool. I do agree that collision detection is also useful. I would argue for a combination of mulitple safety systems. That being said, I do completely understand the noise pollution concerns of vehicles; however, given that the sounds are only emited at very low speeds — IIUC, these sounds are intended match the sound pressure generated by a vehicle travelling at 30kmph — it shouldn't be too much of a problem; I believe that it is worth the benefit.

[–] halykthered@lemmy.ml 7 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Put a bell on them, works for cats.

[–] snooggums@midwest.social 9 points 5 months ago

I've never been struck by a cat in a crosswalk so this suggestion checks out.

[–] Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works 6 points 5 months ago

Some newer ones do emit a sound when moving slow. I've never looked into it to find their actual rationale — I've always presumed that it was for pedestrian safety.

[–] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 1 points 5 months ago (2 children)

Damn that is a huge effect size… I am shocked, especially given safety features that now exist on newer cars (unless they normalized for car age).

[–] Windex007@lemmy.world 2 points 5 months ago

I'm not shocked at all. I've almost been hit like 3 times in parking lots by silent EVs.

As a pedestrian, I was certainly unaware at how much I relied on my hearing to generate my situational awareness around cars. Each time, the driver wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary, either.

Honestly, as the pedestrian in this scenario, I'd rather the vehicle cue me on where it is and what it's doing than give the driver another sensor to ignore. Give me as the pedestrian some tools to work with. Let me be involved.

It doesn't have to be as loud as a big diesel truck. A ford focus is fine.

[–] Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works 1 points 5 months ago (1 children)

especially given safety features that now exist on newer cars

Do note that the dataset that they used is from 2013-2017.

[–] LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 2 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Interesting. When did they start adding noise to low speed EVs? I wonder how this analysis would look for newer vehicles.

[–] Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works 2 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago)

When did they start adding noise to low speed EVs?

At least 2016 (in the USA) [source (archive)].