this post was submitted on 14 May 2024
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Do any of them know what the word "liberal" actually means?

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[–] Andrzej@lemmy.myserv.one 56 points 5 months ago (94 children)

Do you know what the word 'liberal' actually means

[–] Neato@ttrpg.network 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (6 children)

It has 2 common definitions:

  1. Neo-liberal: a political approach that favors free-market capitalism, deregulation, and reduction in government spending
  2. Leftism in general.

You're almost never going to hear the right-wing use #1. Authoritarian communists will use #1 as a catch-all for modern capitalism.

[–] lugal@sopuli.xyz 33 points 5 months ago (1 children)

The US is such a right wing country that liberals are the mainstream left. In Europe, liberals are centrists and they aren't further to the right than American libs.

[–] Neato@ttrpg.network 7 points 5 months ago (4 children)

The meme says "American Republicans" so I thought we were considering this from an American pov. Definitions are going to change going to other countries and doubly so when talking about politics.

[–] archomrade@midwest.social 11 points 5 months ago (17 children)

It isn't just about it meaning something else when 'going to another country'. 'Liberal' has an actual definition with a history.

I'm honestly kind of confused about american liberals digging their heals in on this definition when it has historically been taken to mean something they don't seem to agree with anymore.

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[–] archomrade@midwest.social 11 points 5 months ago (12 children)

It's extremely frustrating hearing this repeated so often here.

It's fine if this is the colloquial definition you're used to hearing and using, but this is certainly not the way it's used outside of American politics and pretending like it's the only use comes off as both ill-informed and condescending.

When used derisively from the left, rest assured it is not referring to either of your adopted generalizations but a very specific ideology.

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[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 5 months ago

Liberalism has never meant "leftism in general." It has always been an ideology supporting the individual via private property rights. Neoliberalism is the modern form of it.

Liberalism was considered left when feudalism was right, but liberalism has never meant leftism.

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[–] menemen@lemmy.world 11 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (3 children)

This discussion is funny from a German pov, as our main local liberal party (the FDP) is pretty right wing and has been so since the 1940s. "Liberalism" always had a quite neative connotation to me therefore. They are also the party most open to working together with the far right (the AFD).

Liberalism can be right wing or left wing. It makes more sense to structure the political specrum like this. But even that is far from prefect.

[–] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 7 points 5 months ago (4 children)

Liberalism can be right wing or left wing.

Eh. Its traditionally in that "economically conservative, socially liberal" pocket, wherein you can do whatever you want so long as you've got enough passive income.

Fascists tend toward a more rigid social caste system (ideologically) wherein being rich isn't enough to save you from state violence. That's a big part of its popular appeal, particularly when liberal institutions decay into kleptocracies.

Traditional Marxism tends toward the social egalitarianism that fascists can't stomach (race mixing, gender equality, and worker internationalism) while advocating full public ownership that liberal rent-seekers can't stomach.

So, in the modern political spectrum, liberals tend to be "centrists" who use their economic influence to rent out social egalitarianism. Fascists tend to be "right wing", advocating for those same private entities to purge themselves of unpopular social groups. And Marxists tend to be "left wing", advocating for an abolition of rents and a full egalitarian economy.

But if you go back a century (or move over to a country that's more left or right leaning) the colonial era monarchies and theocracies end up forming the right-wing pole, while fascists join liberals at the social center, and Marxists join a much more lively native anarchist community that's in its last-gasp efforts to resist colonial occupation.

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[–] orrk@lemmy.world 5 points 5 months ago* (last edited 5 months ago) (2 children)

that's because liberalism in Europe is mainly "liberty" for rich people to do what they want

[–] Tryptaminev@lemm.ee 13 points 5 months ago (1 children)

Isn't it the same in the US though? They still don't have universal healthcare or basic worker protection like protecting women from being fired over giving birth.

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