I am far from equating. Liberation of Ukrainian people must culminate in the destruction of the Ukrainian state, be it western- or Russian-backed, as is the case for all other peoples and states.

On the other hand, destruction of only Ukraine serves only their imperialist oppressor - Russia.

It's so funny when a liberal crying about "western values" is lecturing me on what constitutes idiocy.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 10 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

It’s so funny when a liberal crying about “western values” is lecturing me on what constitutes idiocy.

Yogthos is not defending Western/liberal values, he is pointing out the hypocrisy of liberalism.

Liberation of Ukrainian people must culminate in the destruction of the Ukrainian state, be it western- or Russian-backed, as is the case for all other peoples and states.

Yes.

On the other hand, destruction of only Ukraine serves only their imperialist oppressor - Russia.

Russia is not predominantly an imperialist state at the moment, though it is a capitalist state which should ultimately be destroyed. And being a capitalist state, in time it may well develop into a full-throated imperialist state. To elaborate I’ll copypasta myself:

Honest question from a non-communist, based on your reply here. Does one need to support Putin to be a Marxist?

In a word, no. In a few more words, support for Russia (not Putin, as historical materialists don’t subscribe to great man theory) is only a partial, temporary, tactical one, in the context of imperialist liberation. Russia is still a capitalist state, though, so it’s a two stage strategy: first liberate colonized bourgeois states from colonizer states, and second revolution within those liberated bourgeois states.

Russia is an interesting case: it has already liberated itself from the post-Soviet “shock therapy” neocolonizers. This occurred during Putin’s administration, which is why he is especially hated by the US. So now the support for Russia is in the context of keeping the colonizers from recolonizing it, and supporting Russia to the extent that it helps other states liberate themselves. But Russia isn’t trying to “liberate” Ukraine, at least not all of Ukraine. It’s trying to resolve the genocidal attacks on the people of the Donbas, and it’s trying to resolve the imperialist military expansion at its border.

Robert Parry, 2015: The Mess that Nuland Made

Jeffery Sachs, 2023: The War in Ukraine Was Provoked—and Why That Matters to Achieve Peace

[+] hrosts@lemm.ee -8 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Yogthos is not defending Western/liberal values, he is pointing out the hypocrisy.

Appeal to hypocrisy is one of the lowest, filthiest of arguments, used by trolls, propagandists and hacks of all allegiances. You didn't make him look much better.

Russia is not predominantly an imperialist state

Russian war against Ukraine is a textbook example of an imperialist war - a plunderous attempt to cut up and consume, annex a smaller neighbor in order to expand the sphere of influence of Russian capital, to turn back the losses of the 2010s, when Ukraine escaped, though not unscathed, the clutches of the Russian bourgeoisie in favor of apparently more appealing clutches of the US and EU capital.

Russia is also a colonial power, which you seem to disregard in favor of the following:

Russia is an interesting case: it has already liberated itself from the post-Soviet “shock therapy” neocolonizers.

Positioning the victory of Russian owning class in the act of class warfare which was the shock therapy, calling it and the following consolidation of power by the national bourgeoisie a "liberation" is just disgusting. It was class war, first and foremost. It could give birth to a neocolonial relationship, if it "succeeded" - but it did not. It was a boost for the capital class, which then metastasized into the current liberal turned fascist regime.

It's also funny to me how you completely disregard oppressor part, which is as important as the imperialist part.

In a word, no. In a few more words, support for Russia is only a partial, temporary, tactical one

So, lesser evilism? Russia is definitely a smaller evil, but I'm not sure how it's a lesser one. I might be biased though, given Russia's desire to eradicate me.

It’s trying to resolve the genocidal attacks on the people of the Donbas

There were 25 civilian deaths on both sides during the whole of 2021; large portion of them due to mines and other wartime remains. The claims of genocide in Donbas are some of the most blatant lies there, and you should be ashamed of yourself for ever uttering them.

By ignoring the imperialist nature of the invasion, by repeating the position of Russian capital - "the genocide, the aggression, the protection of the motherland against foreign interests" - you inadvertently serve as their lackey.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 9 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

Oh I see, this conversation would just be a repeat of eight months ago, where no successful communist states have ever existed, the USSR was an ethnic cleanser, and Russia today is a fascist state. You also seemed to downplay Ukraine’s Nazi problem.

You were right on at least one account, though: Haz, Maupin, and Hinkle are patsocs and/or nazbol pieces of shit. But I don’t know why you thought anyone on Lemmy/Lemmygrad/Hexbear would give them the time of day. Where did you get that idea?

As for Ukraine’s Nazi problem:

BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU
Truthout, 2015: The Ukraine Mess That Nuland Made
The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
The Guardian, 2017: 'I want to bring up a warrior': Ukraine's far-right children's camp – video
WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
Consortium News, 2022: Evidence of US-Backed Coup in Kiev

[–] hrosts@lemm.ee -4 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

If you think you can just dump on me a bunch of articles and leave me to piece together what your argument might be or not be, you're wrong.

You said Ukraine is/was doing a genocide. You did not provide any evidence, while ignoring that cries of "national integrity" and "national security" are barely something more than legitimization mechanism for imperialist conflicts and has been such since imperialism existed.

You said Russia is not imperialist, or that Russian invasion is not imperialist, and chose to ignore my actual stated argument.

The Nazis - please make a statement I can argue with.

successful communist states

It's either an oxymoron, or you're begging the question. Also no argument again.

Don't be a lazy fuck and actually argue.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 8 points 7 months ago (2 children)

No one here seems interested in our opinion, and no one’s going to click on more replies in a three day old post, so bugs-no

[–] hrosts@lemm.ee -5 points 7 months ago

So you know the genocide story is a lie and keep spreading it? That's fucked up.

[–] Urist@lemmy.ml 1 points 7 months ago

They think western hegemony will fall anytime now if only Russia can "win" the war. Also, they think somehow a multi polar world order with Russia on the stage is going to be a step towards freeing the people of the earth.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 7 months ago

Thanks for plainly admitting that what you actually care about is preserving western hegemony.