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Despite being on .ml, there's a real issue with Tankies here. They hate the USA which...like fair enough, not exactly a paragon of virtue them. But then they go waaaay the other way and think China and Russia are utopian meritocracies, it's fucking bizarre.
There's a very common mental trapping in humans where, once you've identified a serious problem or antagonist, you immediately become more sympathetic to its opposites or declared rivals. A lot of them had a genuine, valid concern with a capitalist society that was screwing them over, turned that into an identity, and ended up in echo chambers where that fallacy wouldn't be called out. It's difficult to get them out of there because they feel like they have to defend their identity and their social group, so in the rare cases where they meet someone who does understand and share their valid anti-capitalist positions but is capable of reasonably calling out their campist bullshit, they immediately jump to think it's just "another lib" and refuse to engage.
Which is why I'm very proud of the World News community not to let the justifiable Israel hate go overboard into Hamas support. Most, if not all, of us appear to be smarter than that and know that the Palestinian people are who need to be supported.
Yeah, the Hamas support is weird. Hamas isn’t a popular front or anything, they’re also fucking over the Palestinian people. They took power and stopped holding elections many years ago.
The people I want to succeed are the Israeli and Palestinian people seeking to build a positive peace and a constructive cohabitation. That’s the anti Zionism I was sold on. And yes the first step is for Israel to stop massacring civilians.
That sounds like the second step to me. As long as conservatives hold power in Israel, the horror will never stop.
I'm not sure what you mean. I usually see casualty numbers provided by third parties. The UN OHCA does a lot of it.
https://www.ochaopt.org/
He was spouting propaganda, trying to blur the arguments.
They are relying entirely on numbers provided by Hamas. There is no independent third party counting casualties in the strip.
Okay, so where should casualty figures come from?
It's fine to admit that we simply don't know until the war is over. Only then can a true count be possible, without terrorists interfering.
And who will make the count then?
Ideally an independent party, like an NGO with no affiliations to Hamas and Israel.
And how would they make such a count? Dig all the bodies out of the rubble and find where all the unmarked mass graves are?
Head count of the survivors vs. pre-war records.
The pre-war records kept by Hamas? Who you said can't be trusted?
Think about this for a second. Hamas has an interest in accurate internal head counts for e.g. tax purposes - they were the de-facto government of the strip, after all. Their public statements cannot be trusted.
So they wouldn't want to know what their head count is now? Or they're just lying about it now but weren't lying about it then? You're not really making much sense.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are not just deliberately doing the old "just asking questions" thing and are legitimately having difficulties with understanding relatively simple concepts.
There is a difference between their internal numbers and their outside communication. It's quite easy to keep an accurate head count during peace time and they did that, for taxing purposes alone - and to maintain the level of control that they wanted as the rulers of an oppressive police state. Just in case you didn't know what kind of place Gaza was before the war.
However, they actually have no idea right now, because it's war, it's chaotic, with shifting front lines, people being displaced, caught under the rubble, disfigured bodies with no identifying marks, families getting torn apart and not knowing what happened to their loved ones, etc.
You know, the same chaos as in every other war. You can't keep accurate records under these conditions, especially considering that everything even remotely resembling an official Hamas government office has been bombed to smithereens or overrun by ground troops - but Hamas pretends that they do, with precise casualty figures published incredibly frequently. That's not how this works. Israel needed months for an accurate count of their deaths from just October 7th, despite the fact that the fighting within Israel lasted only for a day or two. Ukraine has huge "unknowns" about their population in occupied areas and where there has been or is fighting.
Yet Hamas of all people somehow are omniscient record keepers - and barely anyone is willing to question it. We then get a game of telephone of increasingly reputable parties repeating Hamas numbers to one another, until people can naively say that "the BBC" or "the UN" is reporting something, oblivious to the actual source of the information. It's as if nobody learned how to properly trace sources at school or university.
Don't they have to communicate with the outside to give people those internal numbers? At which point, they will be a lie?
Conflating the Gaza Ministry of Health with Hamas is a very common propaganda tactic. The truth is that they operate under the de-facto government of Gaza, which is Hamas, but they don't work for them as in pushing their agenda. Your statement of the numbers being "provided by Hamas" is entirely false tho.
The numbers they provided in the past passed verification by third party investigations (Examples: 2014 war comparison with B'Tselem and analysis of the current war's numbers by The Lancet) and are considered to be reliable. During an active war, independent verification is pretty much impossible tho.
That tracks. Though I'd say it's often less "refuse to engage" and more "refuse to engage in good faith". They definitely engage enough to yell things with fingers in their ears.
From their basements in Utah.