this post was submitted on 02 Apr 2024
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The average life expectancy on the Pine Ridge reservation in South Dakota is 52 for men and 54 for women. Their land is contaminated from uranium mining and the US uses parts of it as a bombing range.
What is happening in Israel is exactly what was done and is being done to indigenous people in all those other places too.
A terrible injustice which of course needs to be corrected.
The population in question is 20,000 people. That's about 400 people born per year with a life expectency of 60% the national average; arguably equivalent to 400 murders per year.
Gaza has 2.4 million people with a similar life expectency. (The same math yields 50,000 effective murders per year.) Not to mention they are actively being bombed today, and their population is mostly children (under 18). This means that when someone is killed by an Israeli soldier, that someone is most likely a minor!
What is the point of isolating Pine Ridge within the United States to directly relate it to Israel's treatment of all Palestinians? Pine Ridge isn't the only indigenous community in the United States. The United States is just farther along the settler colonial project, that doesn't make it better or incomparable.
Of course it's better to be further along the colonial project. Probably every country on earth could be considered colonial over some timespan. As that duration goes to infinity, the marginal damage per year inflicted by colonialism goes to zero. (The cumulative damage increases of course, to some upper bound.) This is basic calculus.
I don't think you're coming from the worst place, but maybe consider that quantifying marginal units of human suffering isn't the best framework for this type of discussion.
Absolutely it is. I'm a staunch utilitarian. This is the most effective framework to help reduce human suffering in the modern world.
I'm going to say the folks who'd slit your throat if it makes enough other people feel warm and fuzzy do not have the best framework to reduce human suffering
You're basically saying it would be unethical to have killed Hitler.
Obviously not.
What you're missing is that most ethical frameworks see human life as valuable enough that it should only be taken in the most dire of circumstances (usually to prevent at least one more death). So it's fine to kill an active shooter, but it's not fine to kill someone who's stolen a bunch of cars, even if the value of those cars is more than the dollar figure a utilitarian would place on an individual's life.
A utilitarian will (generally) also see a human life as being so valuable that it should only be taken in the most dire of circumstances. Unlike other people, they are actually willing to calculate exactly how dire that circumstance should be.
You can press a button once that will extend somebody's life by a month but 90% of that month will be spent in pure agony. You cannot ask them what their preference is. Do you extend their life or not? I wouldn't press that button. A hospital might.
The first link you dropped in this exchange includes articles like "You Can Put A Dollar Value On Human Life." I just don't believe people who assign that sort of value to lives, and whose core philosophy is maximizing value, are strictly opposed to trading others' lives if the math checks out. Strict utilitarianism is basically "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas."
I'm sure lots of utilitarians try to put a nicer gloss on this, but that's the bones of the philosophy.
I love Le Guin.
The link you mentioned is dead, but I agree with the notion. Governments already put a dollar value on human life. Dollars can save lives, therefore human lives are worth dollars. Katja Grace says it better than I can.
Pull the lever, divert the trolley, save four lives.
You are why people hate utilitarianism
yep. cuz they hate to admit we right ;)