this post was submitted on 10 Oct 2023
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Really makes you think about why Hamas is so radicalized, doesn't it? It's not like you can pull a Muslim out of a hat and radicalize them. People in a stable, healthy, and fair socioeconomic position do not see violence as an answer. People who live under constant oppression, inequality, and fear do.
And the irony is that Israel allowed Hamas to be funded by Arabic countries 25 years ago when it was a way to weaken Arafat and the PLO. Everything in this area is fucked beyond parody. No authority on either side has any idea about morality.
Netanyahu actually said something very similar, that the best way to destabilise the Palestinian Authority was to finance Hamas.
The same parallels with how the US funded what would later become Al Qaeda to fuck with the Soviets. Then they did 9/11.
Having a religion that claims that you're the greatest people on this planet helps.
edit You guys think that it doesn't help, or that Abrahamic religions aren't saying that? Help me understand.
You're describing roughly half the planet
A remarkably small amount of people on this planet think they should be, no, make that deserve to be living in the area where biblical / quranic time people lived. But yeah, the amount of people who think they're the greatest people is probably much more than just half.
Even I may have been known to make that mistake every now and other second.
I don't give a shit personally. Dont fucking murder and kidnap civilians. There isn't a justification
They arent justifying hamas, they are highlighting how israel actively created the environment that gave hamas the capability to do this.
Say that to Israel. The average age of the population in Gaza is 18. Unless there was a population boom of unprecedented proportions 18 years ago. (There wasn't) Something seriously wrong is going on.
I don't support Hamas's attack. But Israel isn't the victim. The people of Palestine and even Israel are the victims. And ultimately, the government of Israel is the aggressor. They could stop this. But they don't. They just make excuses and dehumanize the Palestinians. Then act surprised when they get the response they want.
Of note: The blockade of Gaza is going on for a good 16 years, now. About half of Gazans grew up under that regime and they're just about reaching fighting age now, already having gone through "what might I possibly be in the future" age and, well, there's not exactly many options are there.
Exactly. Regardless of who started this. At some point someone's going to have to be the bigger person. And unfortunately that can literally only be israel. And they are absolutely refusing. No matter how good or bad people in guys that are Palestinians in general behave. They are just counted phones to Israel and many other Middle Eastern powers.
For both, they fucking deserve each other
No. They really don't. It's pretty fucked up what Hamas just did. But it didn't come from a vacuum. Those people and their families have lived there for centuries. Before a bunch of Western powers came in occupied, and then decided to kick them out of their own territories. Off their own lands. Give it to people who hadn't been there in living memory at the very best. Violence begets violence and it's been that way ever since the start of this situation. Unfortunately however. Israel is going to have to be the bigger person here. Because they're not the ones trapped in a blockade of Israel's design with the help of other Middle Eastern Nations.
I don't think any sane person is justifying the horrors committed by Hamas. But they seem to be somewhat logical consequences to the last 30 (60?) years of fuckery in the area.
Israel has been forced into existence and had to be extra tough to continue to exist when all its neighbours were looking for a quick genocide, Gaza is basically an open sky prison, the whole world is toying with the concepts of religion and nationalism in the area, everybody in the area is getting increasingly radicalised, major powers have been having proxy wars around here, politicians are playing 4D snooker to stay in power by any means necessary... The list goes on and on
More like 100 years. The british began mass immigrating Jews to Israel back in 1923.
Are you talking about Israel or Hamas? Because they've both killed a lot of civilians. Israel has actually killed more.
Source BBC News on the hostage situation "The focus appears to be on a swap involving women and children - including Israelis and other nationals - in an exchange for Palestinian women and children in Israeli jails."
Even if that was the intention, there's witness accounts of people being raped and tortured before being murdered. We have videos of women with bloodied crotches being paraded. There's a video of men sitting and spitting on a dead woman's body. Nothing justifies that
Thank you for stating the obvious.
Take a second and just breathe. Relax. It's going to be ok.
This is the second thread I've seen today with your awful takes. Probably worth a block, but I don't believe in it. Just know that you're super fucking wrong.
I get it but overall with this situation I don't get why its crazy to say fuck both of these groups and targeting civilian's is never acceptable
Because one side uses civilians as meat shields like cowards and the other side doesn't.
Also, about half of Israel's jewish citizens = secular people who want peace
It seems to be the ultra-religious on both sides that are constantly making things worse.
You can't understand not wanting to leave but instead voting via democratic process only to be dissatisfied/alarmed that more authoritarian, right wing demagogues are pushing the Overton Window right and eroding democracy?
Do you live on Mars? This is happening everywhere.
To quote some "very fine people" from a major western nation. "Jews will not replace us".
Lots of places aren't exactly welcoming to them.
Why should the Palestinians pay for German crimes with their blood?
I think this comment is pretty unfair. You're right that there's a historical demonization of Jews that continues to this day, but i don't think it makes sense to suggest that the only solution is for all the Jews to hide out in Israel (or some other Jewish nation/state).
That said i don't think it makes sense to say they have to leave for that reason either, or that it's the smart thing to do or whatever. Why not stay? If only there were more secular Jews in Israel who opposed apartheid.
What makes the problem hard is that there are a lot of dickheads on both sides, not just the governments. You can be an oppressed victim AND a dick. These things are not mutually exclusive, unfortunately.
Plus Israel's dickery gets blind support from America. I'd guess if the Americans demanded actual concessions from Israel this would no longer be a problem, they'd have two states already. As it is, they have every economic and political incentive to just squeeze the Palestinians harder.
You mean the American government surely. Americans can't even get our government to do shit for Americans lmao
Have Americans often tried the path to a communist revolution against the state, like how they tell every "bad" country on earth to do it? No? Americans are supportive of every genocide, war crime and terrorist attack ever committed by their government.
Isreali citizens = also victims, although much less abused and arguably somewhat complicit if they immigrated.
This part always makes me feel ambivalent about the Israelites in the conflict. Israeli citizens are complicit victims, and that's a contradiction but it's also true. Civilians are getting hurt and dying and that's not okay. However those same Israeli citizens are also supporting a basically genocidal government. Thousands of guidanceless rockets were fired at Isreal, are they expected not to respond? Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have been victimized for their entire lives, are they expected not to respond?
If you're just born in Tel Aviv or Gaza City, I don't think you should be blamed for these military things. Maybe you support Hamas or Otzma Yehudit, but you're kind of a product of your environment, and if tangential support is all you do you're still a bystander. Maybe not a great example of humanity, but a bystander none the less.
I would have to be pretty truly desperate to consider aliyah myself, even before there was a war. I guess I could do it, and then support forces in Israel for peace, but I'm not sure if I'd make any difference, and they're going to be reluctant to let in my never-practiced ass even without me being openly hostile to the whole project.
One of the downsides of having mandatory military service is that civilians aren’t exactly regular civilians. Even if they’re not serving now, most of the adult population in Israel has served in the army.
I don’t think that excuses sexual violence and executing children, but it definitely makes the context of civilians a lot murkier.
Fortunately, no child executions or rapes have been confirmed.
This kind of thinking is what got the troubles as bad as it was
Yeah it did. Unfortunately though once the genie is out of the bottle it's really hard to put it back in. War has it's own momentum and it's that momentum that needs to be resisted or expended before a war will stop. Perhaps I was unclear, I do not support any active combatants to the war and like every other war it's the non-combatants who will suffer the most. As much as I would like to resist the momentum of war, I'm just a dude on the other side of the planet talking about something he barely knows.
Looks like some self proclaimed centrists felt triggered by this lmao
I have decided to use this against every centrist fascist sympathiser from now on. Clowns should be clowned upon.