Privacy

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Is privacy possible with smart TV? (lemmy.ml)

submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by Clymene@lemmy.ml to c/privacy@lemmy.ml

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I'd like to start a discussion about TV privacy in 2023. I've never been interested in having a TV, but recently I was thinking of getting one. Looking into it, the privacy implications seem horrible. All the major brands seem to have cameras, microphones, and content recognition software. I can't believe how dystopian it is.

I also notice that most of the articles about this are from a few years ago. Are things better now? Do they still collect an Orwellian amount of data?

As I understand it, there are a few mitigation options:

Leave it disconnected from the internet and use a separate device for streaming. But it sounds like some brands have incessant nag screens, or disable features until connected to the internet. I was looking into the Samsung Frame TV, but I'm not even sure you can use the art mode without internet. Does anyone know?
Pi-hole set up with a blocklist. It's disheartening that such a technical solution would be necessary.
Get a commercial "dumb" display. These are more expensive, and usually thicker.
Go through the menu and disable privacy violating settings. Does this work? I'm doubtful.

edit: Just to be clear, I am NOT talking about the normal sort of ad tracking that happens when you use streaming services. Netflix knows what you’re watching regardless of what device you use. I’m talking about stuff like a hidden camera recording your facial reactions, microphones recording your private conversations, and screen recording of your viewing activities. This is sci-fi dystopia level creepy.

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[–] Skimmer@lemmy.zip 12 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

The world of TV's is pretty tricky for privacy right now, there's a lot to say on it, so here's my recommendations.

I recommend just getting any TV and disconnecting it from the internet, the brand shouldn't matter. You can connect it to the internet every now and then to check for software updates (i.e. any bug fixes or new features being added), but for the most part I'd leave it fully offline, and would also recommend uninstalling any apps possible that are installed, to just speed up things, especially since we won't be using them. All of the TV brands out there are pretty much equally bad for privacy, and will spy on you and collect and sell any data they can, and also built-in Smart TV's just generally have very poor and slow performance, plus lack support for various codecs and formats, etc. So even besides privacy, built-in Smart TV's are just a horrible experience and I really never recommend them and don't see them worth using.

Now, you'll need to obtain a streaming box to connect to your TV... so that you can actually consume content and use it. You have a few options as far as privacy goes.

Building/using your own PC, or using something like a Raspberry Pi, with Linux - This gives you the most control possible, but at the cost of being less convenient and requiring much more work to set-up and configure. You will be losing a lot of nice features like Dolby Vision with this approach as well, and will have to do some tinkering and configuring for sure, but overall it could be preferable to some people.
Apple TV 4K - Out of all the streaming boxes and sticks out there that you can buy, this is undeniably the most private out of the box. Its not a bad device in terms of specs and features (though there are better options for this as I will get to) ... but it isn't ideal though, as it is Apple after all. Despite being better than companies like Facebook and Google, Apple has definitely had some issues with things like privacy. Plus with an Apple device, you lose all freedom and control over it, you can't even sideload apps on the Apple TV or install something like a VPN on it, plus OS and everything being closed source, etc. This is a hard recommendation for me for most people, but it could be ideal for people who want 0 tinkering or work, and just want something private out of the box that's simple and easy. Though, I would certainly avoid it for the better options if possible.
NVIDIA Shield TV - This is what I personally use and would be my recommendation for most people. The specs and features of the device are essentially unparalleled to any other box out there, it even beats the Apple TV in terms of support for codecs and formats. For privacy... out of the box, the Shield is pretty horrible to say the least. Full of Google tracking and spying, and even requires a Google account on first set-up. The good thing is we can fix it. You have 2 options: Either install LineageOS (the Shield is officially supported) for the most privacy possible, or you can just keep the stock OS and use ADB to remove all Google apps and services, as well as any other bloatware and unwanted crap. The downside to Lineage is you lose Dolby Vision, AI Upscaling, and the App Switcher (so you can't switch apps by double pressing the home button anymore), so for most people, if you go this route I would recommend just keeping stock and removing all of the BS through ADB (You can just use a random burner Google account for set-up). Isn't 1000% ideal, but overall its really nice and seems to work well, while keeping privacy intact. You can also even use ADB to set a Private DNS, as well as disable connectivity checks (or change the server away from Google), so overall you can get a pretty nice set-up with this, its the best approach imo.
Dynalink TV Box - While I do recommend the Shield for most people, if its out of your price range and you aren't willing to or can't get it (though I can't stress enough that it's well worth it for what you get), then the Dynalink TV Box is the next best option imo. It officially supports LineageOS which can be installed, which is what I'd recommend doing if you go for this approach, since the lost features like AI Upscaling and Dolby Vision from the Shield are irrelevant since they aren't present on the Dynalink box in the first place. This would give you great privacy if that's the sole thing you're after.

I'd avoid any other TV box out there besides the ones I just listed, as they all pretty much just spy on you and collect and sell your data, and there's little to no gain or benefit that I see in using them over your built-in smart TV or any of the other options that exist.

I think overall these are the best recommendations and ways to be able to privately use a TV without it spying on you and phoning home any and everything you do on it. I do hope it gets easier and simpler in the future, but this is what we got for now.

[–] Clymene@lemmy.ml 5 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Great detailed comment. My concern is that I’m not clear on whether the TV tries to collect data even without an internet connection, and sends the collected data if you ever connect it in the future (e.g. for a firmware update). It’s such a poorly regulated industry, I have no trust in the companies imposing any reasonable limits on their own behavior.

[–] Skimmer@lemmy.zip 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

This is a very fair concern.

However, the thing to consider is with these Smart TV's, and generally poor privacy companies and devices, is that they'll always use the lowest hanging fruit where possible. I'd say the amount of data that the device will go through the lengths to collect offline and later upload are quite low.

Most Smart TV's collect data from when people directly use the Smart TV itself (i.e. what apps and content you directly watch and download on it as an example). The vast majority of people who buy TV's like this will just use the built-in Smart TV for watching media and for doing everything on the device, without even giving it a second thought, so the manufacturers basically automatically win and get data on 99% of consumers, without really any effort or work.

For people like us who do care and go through the trouble of circumventing it (i.e. not using the built-in Smart TV at all, and disconnecting the TV entirely from the internet besides for updates occasionally), I'd say that only leaves 2 issues: listening through the mic (I think this is unlikely since voice recordings take up a lot of storage space, as well as bandwith to upload, and like I said in my first comment, TV manufacturers really cheap out on these devices and cut corners wherever possible, and back to my point of the low hanging fruit, but regardless, if you're concerned, then removing the mics or taping them would certainly solve this), and recording or storing what you view through other inputs like your streaming box (again I feel this is unlikely for same reasons as voice recording, it'd take up a lot of space and bandwith, isn't quite practical, and they typically focus on the low hanging fruit).

These are both possible concerns, but I'd say they're realistically extremely unlikely, especially due to how much effort and work it would take to spy on such a small portion of people. The investment and the amount of work and effort needed to do this just doesn't make sense and isn't really justified for them. If you're still concerned, then I'd recommend just putting your TV behind a VPN and putting it into a separate VLAN whenever you do connect or update it (and also just taping/removing the microphone like I said above), or of course if you're extra paranoid, you can always just leave it fully offline and deal without updates. But I personally just don't see it as a major risk or something to worry about.

There definitely needs to be regulations on these devices, its completely unacceptable in its current state. It shouldn't be this hard to just get something like a TV without it spying on you and completely invading your privacy, but I guess that's the world we live in now. :/

[–] Clymene@lemmy.ml 2 points 1 year ago

Right, these seem like reasonable hypotheses. I see a LOT of “innovation” happening in this space, though. In the future, or maybe even the present, I think it would be trivial to use speech to text and store conversations as small text files. Let’s say anytime it hears a specific brand name, “Cheerios” or “Toyota”, it records the conversation in a text file and sends it to marketers for research. It’s really not unthinkable.

The recent Mozilla report confirms that cars are using your microphone to determine what song or podcast you’re listening to, and listening to your conversations, so it’s not as if this is paranoid conjecture. If there’s money in it, and no rules to stop them, I think it’s almost inevitable.

I think automatic content recognition works by capturing still frames at strategic moments, so it may not take as much data as we think. For example, studios apparently hide watermarks that identify shows and movies. Then you would just need to make the tv detect the watermarks, not store and send screenshots of the screen. Then it can send a tiny CVS file of when and for how long you watched the show. It wouldn’t even need to know the name of the show. The watermark could be an alphanumeric code, and so even new shows would be detectable.