this post was submitted on 03 Sep 2023
350 points (91.9% liked)
World News
32352 readers
403 users here now
News from around the world!
Rules:
-
Please only post links to actual news sources, no tabloid sites, etc
-
No NSFW content
-
No hate speech, bigotry, propaganda, etc
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
Just another piece of evidence that the west never actually cared about Ukraine or people living there. Ukrainians are just a pawn the west is using to try and weaken Russia with zero consideration for the lives of the people living there.
Well, the alternatives are heavy metal, which also aren't the greatest to breathe in. It's almost like war is aweful and this one shouldn't have been started in the first place, but here we are...
No, the alternative is for the west to stop using Ukraine to fight a proxy war with Russia.
And what, let the Russians steamroll Ukraine and take everything? Let them destroy a fledgling democracy? Right on the EU's and NATO's doorstep? Come on.
lmao are you fucking kidding
and shit while we're at it, what the fuck do you think NATO has been doing its entire existence? it's been destroying -actual- fledgling democracies, you monstrously hypocritical ass
Sees notably corrupt country the U.S. couped in 2014, where even the anti-corruption president has personal funds stashed in offshore bank accounts
I've noticed that every pro-NATO voice screaming "war good" has to pretend like the binary outcome of this war is a) Ukraine becomes Russia and every living inhabitant is genocided (see above comment from bibibi for case in point), or b) Ukraine heroically drives back Russia with magic in a completely asymmetrical and unwinnable war
And then finishes their comment with something like this
There's no material analysis to support any of this
The only way to get to that viewpoint is to believe Putin is an irrational, genocidal maniac hellbent on killing checks notes neighbors who are ethnically russian, who also desperately wants to push even more of Russia's border right up against a hostile NATO. It's no surprise that the people saying this shit are pro NATO and don't understand the material reality underlying geopolitical conflicts like this one
Not gonna touch the "fledgeling democracy" thing, other comrades can dunk on that
This entire thread is proof that the liberal understanding of geopolitics and foreign policy is entirely vibes based
"ethnical russian" - what is that?
russian imperialism is a thing. People there are brainwashed with russia's greatness ideas and expansion. putin's actions just represent the will of russians.
The fact we were attacked and lost that many people is already a defeat. We lost this war when gave up nukes under the push of the west and russia. this together with naivness of our post-soviet people defined the path of our degradation. But it neither a win for russia, and won't be. Russia was always corrupted just like Ukraine, it just got more resources and nukes, but that's it. without the above fact and support of the west, maybe we would not be able to suppress them
this is your brain on liberalism
but thank you for at least conceding america deserved 9/11
i just can't anymore, the cognitive dissonance is fucking astounding, yall can deal with the libs in this thread
im just gonna let people like this
continue to suck off the western imperialists sending radiated shells to his neighborhood, slava ukrani buddy
Oh man I still remember the post that was leaked from russian government webpage on the 25th, a day after russian invaded. It was an absolute hard on about russian imperialism and how they will restore the good old russian empire or something, which included most slavic countries btw. It was taken down in hours but I checked that the addess was correct and legit. No proof of it since it's been a year already and I saved nothing, so if you don't believe it ignore me and please don't spread this since I have no source anymore, but damn if it doesn't paint a clear picture of russia's intent on all of this since way before.
this damning evidence of Russia's intentions would surely have motivated more countries to send aid to Ukraine. Why didn't you take a screenshot?? you realize that you're directly responsible for the deaths of thousand of Ukrainians, right???
How do you think this is going to end exactly?
Lol
The real alternative is for Russians to go home. Who the fuck cares who's using them? They're being invaded. Russia didn't need to invade them, but they thought they could get away with it (again). This isnt the first invasion of a sovereign country Russia has done. It isn't even the first invasion of Ukraine. The US didn't get involved in the others. Are we just going to excuse those?
Have you ever played 4x games? Do you know what encirclement is? When an opponent is ringing your territory with bases while they keep telling you it's totally cool bro, they're just working on their defenses while making alliances with players adjacent to you, what do you consider is their end game?
Yeah, everyone Russia has invaded has been for defence. Sure buddy. The real world is more complex than a 4X game, but even then you can use that to understand why someone would invade another country. They wanted to steal the resources and population. You may use your statement as a justification, but it is never the actual reason. The excuse of it being defensive is rediculous. Yeah, invading a sovereign country (multiple times) is sure to make the alliance "encircling" you stop. Seriously? Do you believe that rhetoric or are you just saying it because you're supposed to?
I don't know why people keep repeating this. Do you honestly think this is a coherent point? Russia is obviously not going to go home no matter how many times you're going to repeat it. It's a meaningless and useless statement that literally solves nothing. Either NATO can defeat Russia or not, so far it looks like NATO is not able to do so. What NATO is accomplishing is prolonging the conflict without changing the outcome. That means more people dying and having their lives ruined so that US military industry can make a profit and so that US can try and weaken Russia geopolitically. Anybody who thinks the west is in this conflict to help Ukraine is an utter imbecile.
Should the US have sent supplies to the allies in WWI and WWII before joining? It was just prolonging the war and causing people to die, right?
The reason the US is doing it is not morality. Everyone knows that. International politics is never about morality, it's about power. However, that doesn't mean it isn't also the moral option.
Also, NATO and the US are not in the war. We're sending supplies. The US isn't even sending the good stuff. We're sending parts of our stockpile that's old and has just been sitting around waiting for a use. They haven't sent the newer technology so it it isn't studied in case a real enemy requires them to be used.
It takes an incredible amount of historical illiteracy to try and draw parallels between WW2 and the proxy war US is waging against Russia in Ukraine. However, if you weren't historically illiterate, then you'd also know that US companies continued working with the nazis well into the war, and IBM is famously responsible for facilitating the holocaust.
Also, NATO and the US are very obviously in this war, and one has to be utterly intellectually dishonest to pretend otherwise.
The yanks were funding the WWII Nazis before they 'sent supplies to the allies'.
I'm sure Ukrainians agree with you.
The Ukrainians that the regime has been abusing for the past 8 years sure do, here's some CNN reporting you might want to watch https://twitter.com/paulius60/status/1611148483859255296
Wow I can't believe you'd post a video from known Moscow-backed front organization... CNN?
Putin puppets have infiltrated the highest echelons of liberal media. That's the only plausible explanation for this.
Yeah i bet they want the war to end
Good thing Russia cared enough to murder, rape and kidnap them. What would Ukrainians do without help from great Putin?
Russia does not need the west to weaken it, comrade, it is perfectly capable of doing that on its own!
Maybe try engaging with reality? https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-08-11/russia-s-war-economy-is-on-course-to-recover-from-sanctions-hit
You expect me to pay for an article from a neolib shitstain outlet?
Have another neolib shitstain outlet, this time for free: https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-economy-brain-drain-labor-shortage-workforce-exodus-capital-flight-2023-9
The truth is that it's all quite hard to measure as Russia is lying about its economical figures (they make no sense whatsoever) and going via secondary indicators is possible, but also frought with uncertainty. But two things really stand out: a) investing in a war you're losing is GDP flushed down the drain, b) they're cut off from any advanced technology at even half-way reasonable prices, c) massive brain drain, there's also d) report of very excessive inflation when it comes to food.
If they manage to raise GDP by exporting more oil or whatnot -- that's raising GDP. It's not actually doing the country any good. More petrorubles for the kleptocrats.
But all that is rather besides the point. Russia, alongside with Ukraine, did a lot of stuff wrong in the 90s. Look at Estonia or e.g. Czechs (if you want to keep it among Slavs) on how to do it... nah, not right, but definitely better.
Ukraine then managed to turn around, develop an actual civil society and clip the wings of the oligarchy, Russia didn't. That is what I mean with "perfectly capable of messing up on their own". It's also the reason for the war it's a matter of regime stability: There's plenty of family ties between Russia and Ukraine, if Russians see that Ukraine can escape the yoke of the kleptocrats then they could start to believe that they, too, can do that.
"Pandora Papers Reveal Offshore Holdings of Ukrainian President and his Inner Circle"
Like seriously, you're arguing that Ukraine's liberal democracy is somehow better than Russia, when the point of liberal democracies under late capitalism is to strip all the copper out of the walls (privatize, austeritize, union-bust), everywhere, all the time.
...and? The man is a successful comedian, has a production company, and everyone knew he's a millionaire. Shuffling money offshore is how you keep it safe in a corrupt country.
No tax fraud, no shady business, no nothing has been found regarding those offshore companies. Forbes estimates him at around 20 million Euro, that's nowhere even close to oligarch scale.
...is to be not as bad as straight-up Kleptocracies. Russia is a mafia state. In Ukraine the state arrests you for corruption, in Russia you get arrested for reporting about corruption. The difference is that simple.
I expect you to have minimal technical literacy to put the link URL in archive.
The truth is that there is no actual evidence to indicate that Russian economy is struggling in any way.
That certainly explains why Europe is in a deep recession now and why US economy is looking shaky.
Once you look at a map you'll realize that Russia shares a huge border with China where all the advanced technology is produced nowadays. Trade between Russia and China has shot up to over 200 billion this year.
Very little evidence for that actually happening, the article you linked is written by the same people who claimed Russia was a gas station with nukes, and that Russian economy was going to collapse months after western sanctions were imposed. If you haven't figured out that you've been lied to yet, that really says a lot about you.
Russia has very low food inflation and happens to be one of the major food producers globally. Once again, the fact that you think Russia has food inflation says volumes.
We're now seeing Russia having made it through two years of being cut off from the western economy, and doing well for itself. Meanwhile, countries like Estonia and Czech republic aren't doing so hot. And frankly, it's completely absurd to compare a country the size of Russia to a country like Estonia.
That's complete and utter horseshit. Ukraine turned into the most corrupt country in Europe, and things have only kept getting worse. Ukraine started as a big industrial power after USSR collapsed, and now it's been robbed entirely of anything of value.
What people in Russia see is that under west's leadership Ukraine managed to become worse than Russia. All that did was convince people in Russia that the west was going to fuck them over exactly the same way they fucked Ukraine over.