this post was submitted on 08 Oct 2023

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Israeli death toll passes 600, another 2,048 injured (www.timesofisrael.com)

submitted 1 year ago by alyaza@beehaw.org to c/news@beehaw.org

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[–] HuddaBudda@kbin.social 41 points 1 year ago (1 children)

This couldn't happen at a worse time.

The Israeli President, has been doing things a bit more draconian of late. To the point he was basically invalidating the supreme court of Israel.

Because they found shady dealings in his past.

The Air force Reservists of Israel basically walked off in protest.

That was three months ago.

Now I imagine the Israeli president will use this like a smoke screen, not only to criticize reservists, but also to hide his criminal intent.

This also helps Saudi Arabia and Syria, as they will be able to hide their military operations under the guise that they are only acting on a more active Israel.

This situation only helps the people in power. It does nothing for the civilians who are going to face the pushback from this. Or already have.

[–] Akasazh@feddit.nl 10 points 1 year ago

I got sick when Bibi smugly, smilingly denounced this attack and declared war. Lacking any solemnity that a repugnant attack like this requires.

Couldn't hide his glee.

Sad day for people of Israel and Palestine alike, this sets back any remote chance of progress for another lifetime.

[+] Lightrider@lemmynsfw.com 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 10 months ago) (2 children)

[removed by mod]

[–] probably@beehaw.org 21 points 1 year ago (3 children)

You realize that all peace talks have failed, because the Palestinian governments refused any deal that required them to recognize Israel's right to exist. Every deal.

And before that, when Israel accepted the offer by the British, the Palestinians didn't accept it because the surrounding countries essentially said they would kill all of the Jews in Israel and take the entire area. Which they tried. Twice. And lost. Twice. And in the ceasefire terms, those countries granted Israel those disputed territories. Actually much more than they currently have, as they gave back most of it to Egypt in peace talks with them.

Palestine could have been a country many times over. But they do not want peace. They wants the whole of Israel.

And during all of those time, things have just gotten worse. And the hatred between the two sides grows. But the only thing that has stopped Palestine from being a country is the fact that the governments of Palestine believe negotiations start and stop at having it all.

So tell me, how does anyone free Palestine?

[–] Kwakigra@beehaw.org 49 points 1 year ago

This is a lie. In the late 70s and early 80s even the PLO was pushing for a two state solution and even removed "Anti-Zionism" from its official goals in the 90s. I'm not going to say everyone in Palestine has always supported one solution or another like you're saying. I'm not going to say that everyone in Israel wants to eliminate all Palestinians from Israeli territory either, although many do, especially the political powers who blocked the two state solution from the other side during that time. This simplistic reading that Palestinians are nothing more than frothing-mouthed mass-murderers is disgusting especially considering who has had power over whom in recent decades.

War is not a heroic struggle of good vs evil, it is a series of economic and political developments which have been transpiring for decades. There has been a lot of bad behavior generally which lead us to this point. Let's not offer absurd ideas in times of turmoil like this. That's not going to help any innocent Palestinian or Isreali civilians getting caught in the crossfire.

[–] anothermember@beehaw.org 17 points 1 year ago

Supposing you're right, do you think all Palestinians should suffer due to failures of their government? I'm pretty sure they're not a hive mind.

[–] Lmaydev@programming.dev 10 points 1 year ago (2 children)

You got any sources? I'm not that well read up on the conflict.

[–] Wahots@pawb.social 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

(Not op)

It's an interesting read. I'm sure there are better sources, but the 40s-80s were a crazy time, with basically all of their neighbors declaring war on them, Israel managing to hold off five different countries, then the UN stopping the war only to have egypt or syria re-arm and try again. I didn't know that the USSR was also helping and hindering at various points. Basically all Jewish peoples immediately fled all Arab countries, peppered with other countries whenever there was a rise in anti-jewish sentiments (eg, in Russia).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

[–] Safeguard@beehaw.org 9 points 1 year ago

I second that request, I need to know more and read more about all of this and all of the sides, before I know what I'm talking about.

[–] Kra@mtgzone.com 2 points 1 year ago

No, exterminate them, eradicate them. Palestine never existed and they made sure it never will

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 24 points 1 year ago (3 children)

Gotta figure that with the arty and planes bombing Gaza, the Palestinian KIA is the same. So that's 1200 in a little over 24 hours and counting. Big number.

[–] SatanicNotMessianic@lemmy.ml 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

This could see tens of thousands dead, 90% of which will be Palestinian and most of whom had nothing to do with the attacks. It could also be the last hurrah for Hamas.

I honestly don’t understand this one, and I used to do this for a living. Terrorist attacks frequently make sense. 9/11 successfully engaged the US in a “global war on terror.” It resulted in a massive burning of resources and an engagement lasting far longer than anyone anticipated. It failed in that al Qaeda has effectively been rendered inoperative, there was no pan-Arab or pan-Islamic movement that rose up to strike down the current world order, and the leadership did not generally get to retire to a life of quiet reflection. But at least it was comprehensible.

This is looking more like the equivalent of the Charles Manson Helter Skelter attack, where some psychotic thought he could ignite a national race war with an incomprehensible slaughter.

If it were not so big, I’d think it was a red flag operation. It’s just that stupid and the consequences are just that dire. This is handing Bobo exactly what he needs on a silver platter.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 22 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) (1 children)

Agree. Near as I can figure the normalization of relations between Saudi and Isreal looked like it was going to come together. Both countries are an enemy to Iran. Iran did this to stop that agreement. Also to consider is...

Who funds Hamas? Iran.

Who funds Iran? Russia

it would certainly be in Russia's interest to deflect the west's attention from Ukraine

[–] agarorn@feddit.de 4 points 1 year ago

I am not sure "Russia funds iran". Yes, they both have developed deeper trade relations since trump cut of Iran more. But so have the relations between iran and China increased.

All of these countries try working together in mutual benefit against the west. But I wouldn't call any of them puppets of another.

[–] alyaza@beehaw.org 20 points 1 year ago

the sheer number of Israeli civilian fatalities is staggering. so far the best count only has 80 or so of the dead being military or police and so the rest of the 600 and counting are presumably civilians.

[–] TWeaK@lemm.ee 13 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Neither side is justified. Both need to be pulled out of the region and put in time out.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 16 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Sure, you can pull people out of their countries....

[–] anachronist@midwest.social 19 points 1 year ago (2 children)

Israel could pull the illegal settlements out of the west bank.

[–] probably@beehaw.org 12 points 1 year ago (1 children)

You realize the attacks are coming from Gaza where Israel did pull out, and then the people immediately elected a terrorist group to lead the country. That group then put the destruction of Israel as one of their main platforms.

I mean if anything this is showing why Israel doesn't withdraw from the West Bank.

[–] hassanmckusick@lemmy.discothe.quest 1 points 1 year ago

That group then put the destruction of Israel as one of their main platforms.

Because Israel is a colonist apartheid state.

[–] Rapidcreek@reddthat.com 10 points 1 year ago (1 children)

I'm not sure that will help anything. Some of that land is used for defensive purposes. The normalization agreements with Saudi Arabia, now delayed due to this stupidity, did have provisions for turning land back to Palestinian control. It didn't seem to make much difference to Hamas.

[–] emma@beehaw.org 7 points 1 year ago

Hamas is funded and armed by Iran. Iranian leadership really doesn't want Saudi Arabia to make a formal normalisation agreement with Israel. Hamas leadership is dedicated to maintaining the wealth they gain from being Iranian proxies. The rest of Hamas is dedicated to destroying Israel.

Hamas is also fighting Fatah for control of the West Bank and the Palestinian Authority government. The worse things are for residents of the West Bank, the better it is for Hamas.

So it's in Hamas' interests, both as proxies for Iran and for their own in the West Bank, to do everything they can to force the Arab world to choose sides and scupper every normalisation agreement, especially the big daddy Saudi one.

[–] Kepabar@startrek.website 11 points 1 year ago (1 children)

Where do they 'pull out' to exactly?

[–] explodicle@local106.com 7 points 1 year ago

For everything they've been through, I hereby award them England.

[–] JokeDeity@lemm.ee 21 points 1 year ago

Downvote me all you want, but what the fuck does anyone expect from a beaten and caged dog other than for it to lash out? If I was raised in Palistine I would probably feel the same way they do, completely lost and broken and that this is their only hope left to make a stance.

[–] emma@beehaw.org 8 points 1 year ago

saw a translator post elsewhere for these terms as used by Israeli media - critical condition means head wounds, very unlikely to survive; seriously wounded means living changing injuries. if i can find the post again i'll link.