Yeah it's cutting off the nose to spite the face. Stupid move by the kernel admins. If you're gonna start banning people from contributitg because of shut their government does, then the entire US and Israeli population of Linux devs should be dropped.
this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2024
96 points (95.3% liked)
Linux
48152 readers
774 users here now
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Linux is a family of open source Unix-like operating systems based on the Linux kernel, an operating system kernel first released on September 17, 1991 by Linus Torvalds. Linux is typically packaged in a Linux distribution (or distro for short).
Distributions include the Linux kernel and supporting system software and libraries, many of which are provided by the GNU Project. Many Linux distributions use the word "Linux" in their name, but the Free Software Foundation uses the name GNU/Linux to emphasize the importance of GNU software, causing some controversy.
Rules
- Posts must be relevant to operating systems running the Linux kernel. GNU/Linux or otherwise.
- No misinformation
- No NSFW content
- No hate speech, bigotry, etc
Related Communities
Community icon by Alpár-Etele Méder, licensed under CC BY 3.0
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
The cold war is reborn and this time it's warmer. Do people not understand that before 30 years ago no communication occured with countries behind the iron curtain. Russia's invasion of Ukraine put us on a path back to those kind of relations.
The new cold war started long before Russia invaded. Google Victoria Newlands involvement in the maidan coup that triggered it
Naw fam this is just stupid. We need global collaboration that's what open source is all about.
Stupid or not, it is the state of the world. It's not down to Linus to do anything but live and work within the situation constructed by the governments of nation states.
This is all very sad.
Linux leadership: we are running dogs for American empire and will eagerly implement all chauvinisy policies in our "international" open source project. Sure we can insult you and lie and make bigoted comments.
Are you all stoked for major forks? Because this is how you get major forks. Presimably they will start as patches on upstream, but decoupling would be an eventuality.
With the state of western software development and how ingrained the US and Israeli security state seems to be there, plus how much China seems to be prioritizing top-to-bottom self-sufficiency in tech, I wouldn't be surprised if a Chinese fork that welcomes Russian contributors becomes a force unto itself.
An ecosystem where India, Russia, and China based coders take leadership is an ecosystem that has a bigger chance for mass adoption in the biggest manufacturing economies in the world.
Stuxnet is just the beginning. Who knows how many hidden programs they're running and building, how many certs and VPNs are compromised, what encryption algos they've cracked, what platforms they have full and instant access to, what critical infrastructure they've rigged to blow, just waiting for a go code...
We won't know for 20 years at least.
Gonna be doing the "downloading communism" meme a bit sooner than expected irl
Two comments about this:
-
It is my firm belief that 99% of the population of any country ruled by a dictator are the primary victims of that dictator, don't condone what their rulers do, have done nothing wrong and are just trying to be good people in unfavorable circumstances.
The Russians are no different and it isn't fair to impose on Russian individuals of obvious good will the treatment governments apply to the Russian government, because the Russian government and the Russian people are two very different things.
-
Linus said in this interview:
I'm Finnish. Did you think I'd be supporting Russian aggression?
and here I'm telling you this: Linus acts like a dipshit.
I know the Finns very, VERY well, and while they're generally great people, when it comes to Russia and Russians, they have epidermic reactions of totally unreasonable proportions.
I understand where they're coming from and why they react like that, but Russia is to the Finnish people what peanuts are to someone with a peanut allergy: the reaction is totally disproportionate and with zero nuances.
Don't ever try to argue with a Finn that a Russian person can be good, and that Putin is also their enemy: the Finn will shut down and stop talking to you - meaning, in their culture, that you can politely go fuck yourself.
And that's what we're witnessing here with Linus: however many years he's lived in California, he still hasn't shed that part of his upbringing, and quite frankly, shame on him.
Finland were Nazi collaborators and aligned with the Axis. After the Soviets let them do their own thing, they have been trying to create new national myths of how actually they were good people that didn't send thousands of Jews to their deaths. This kind of apologia manifests as Russophobia and the various ahistorical recuperations of WWII omnipresent in Western media.
It is like asking a racist Southerner about the Confederacy. You will hear lost cause apologia. Now imagine if they were their own country writing their own history books and media putsches. Now imagine their narrative was slotted into the historical revisionism of the strongest superpower. That is how you get such racist Finns.
lmao
Another great one is "larry thorne", aka Lauri Törni, a finnish nazi (buried with the highest honors in USA's Arlington cemetary btw) who fought against communists and lost 3 times (twice against the USSR, then took an L in Vietnam).
This wiki sidebar sure is one
Amazing!
Weird meme since Finland and Finns are very open about who Finland sided with and it's very commonly talked about too. If anything it should rather be that we're too nonchalant about it rather than trying to hide it somehow.
they were good people that didn't send thousands of Jews to their deaths
I'm not sure how you've counted it but the number for those who were given to the Germans was eight refugees and "some tens" of (Soviet) PoWs. A pretty far cry from the "thousands" you mentioned, but as I said, I'm not sure what you are counting.
For a long time the war and stuff like this was a sore point and the heroic myth overruled everything but since at least for a decade this particular topic has got a lot of public discourse. The heroic myth still lives on though, even if it is milder than it used to be.
I’m not sure how you’ve counted it but the number for those who were given to the Germans was eight refugees and “some tens” of (Soviet) PoWs.
That is the official ahistorical line. Actual historical work accounts for thousands.
Can you share some of these works?
E: TL;DR cited works didn't actually claim "thousands" but "approximately 100". With two zeroes.
For a book, "Finland's Holocaust: Silences of History" by Muir and Worthen provides decent context. For more specifics, the pioneering work of Elina Sana, particularly Luovutetut, should provide the later basis. The thing to focus on is how the intentional ignorance of what her work revealed was maintained for decades by a "if nobody looks or talks about it, Nobody will know" approach to Finland, whose whitewashed participation as a Nazi ally had been fairly thorough. Subsequent critics picked at the margins but her overall thesis and work holds up.
I have the book here in front of me and I think this is the part your'e thinking. From first book, talking about your second source:
Finland’s Holocaust: Silences of History, page 151.
Challenging the official figure of eight Jewish refugees handed over to the German authorities, Sana claimed that during the German–Finnish alliance, the Continuation War (1941–44), Finland extradited almost 3,000 civilians and POWs, among them approximately 100 Jews.
How you could turn that to thousands of handed over Jews, I don't know. If some other part brings it up tenfold then I didn't see it with a quick glance. I think you might've misread or misremembered that part since nowadays that doesn't challenge what I said with "I’m not sure how you’ve counted it but the number for Jews who were given to the Germans was eight refugees and “some tens” of (Soviet) PoWs." Some upper estimates got "up to a hundred" based on just the last names, but usually the number I've seen is below that since just the names can be very uncertain in Russian context.
Still horrible, no question about that, but I originally came to correct was this:
they were good people that didn’t send thousands of Jews to their deaths
You've gotta read both books
I am looking at both but I honestly think you just made a mistake and thought the total number of extraditions was all Jews when the claim is just that "approximately 100" were.
If there's part on either that goes against the quote shown, that jumps up the number tenfold (or more), I'd be happy to see it. But neither book nor any public discourse or (academic) reviews of the books seem to talk about anything but what I've quoted here. If the claim was thousands of Jewish victims and not "approximately 100", from what I could find, everyone but you have read it differently or missed that part. And that would be really significant with how big of a disconnect there has been.
I think you've just misread or misremembered that part...
Like I said, read both books
I'm sorry but they are just not saying what you thought they were. Thousands of extradited people yes, thousands of Jews no. If you have quotes to share or something then please do, because now it just seems like there's been a mistake on your part.
Instead of guessing incorrectly, you could read the materials I offered. I don't know why you believe your lazy guesswork is better than my reading.
I will give you one hint but to be honest at this point it is being too nice: POWs.
It can be hard to admit to having been wrong, even when it's an understandable mistake like this, but literally no one else read the books you mentioned and came away with thinking it was thousands of Jews. First book clearly says (citing the second) it was "approximately 100". Thousands would be at least ten times that.
You are trying to convince me that these books have a ten times bigger number than what everyone else seems to think they said (including the author of the first book), but you can't give any quotations, you can't give anything concrete other than "it's there trust me bro".
I doubt anyone is buying what you are selling. Now would be a good time to either admit to the mistake or put money where your mouth is and actually cite the works like I have.
I did cite works. You have decided that your guessing based on Googling is better than reading the books cited. I cannot fix your laziness. You asked for things to read and I provided them. I cannot, unfortunately, make you read them instead of bullshitting.
Sana estimated 500 from a single deportation, by the way.
I don't think I'm better than the books you cited. I trust those books. You mentioned two books who both directly contradict you by saying the number was "approximately 100". Sana says out of the around 3000 people, "at least 74 were Jews". You mistook the total number of handed over POWs for the number of handed over Jews.
If you think it gives a different number, one that nobody else seems to think is included in those books, please be so kind as to show where in either book.
Sana estimated 500 from a single deportation, by the way.
She did, but they are not talking about Jews specifically but all the people handed over. Like I've tried to explain to you many times, the larger numbers you are citing are for all the people handed over to Germans. Out of those people, Sana estimated that at least 74 were Jews, but since it's uncertain, it's said that it's "approximately 100".
I think you've been under the false assumption that all deportations or even significant percentage were Jews, even though both books say that they constituted "approximately 100" out of the around 3000 people handed over. Most weren't Jews but handed over for other reasons.
I don't think I'm better than the books you cited.
You obviously prize your guesswork and imagination over the historical work you were provided. You are repeatedly announcing, with certainty, how correct you are based on a screenshot of a review of several books, in contradiction of what the book I cited will tell you.
Like I said, I can't force you to read. You are welcome for the book recommendations.
load more comments
(5 replies)
Don't ever try to argue with a Finn that a Russian person can be good, and that Putin is also their enemy: the Finn will shut down and stop talking to you - meaning, in their culture, that you can politely go fuck yourself.
I cracked up reading this. It's not like that these days. Some people are and it used to be worse but things have changed a bunch.
The Russian attack into Ukraine soured things again though. Not that that's an excuse, rather it just happened following that.
While I agree with you and what I’m about to say is the result of decades of propaganda sadly a massive part of the Russian population fully support putin and believe the bullshit they get fed.
Like I said it makes sense and they are victims of the propaganda but it doesn’t change the fact
Unhinged bullshit like this did more to make people support Putin than any propaganda he could spit.
Mate have you interacted with many Russians since the war broke out? I happen to spend every day surrounded by quite a few, all but one think they are justified in the war.
Now there are of course tonnes of people that don’t think that way, but they are sadly not the majority
For first several months the war was extremely unpopular, but sanctions and discrimination against Russians did orders of magnitude more to make people think of the West as the enemy than the dumb state propaganda.
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linus-Torvalds-Russian-Devs
UPDATE: When asked whether Linus Torvalds was under any sort of NDA around this, he responded:
"No, but I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not going to go into the details that I - and other maintainers - were told by lawyers.
I'm also not going to start discussing legal issues with random internet people who I seriously suspect are paid actors and/or have been riled up by them."
Linus was always really, really stupid politically. It's truly amazing he's outlived the Linux foundation.
but the key words are "sanctions", "sorry", "nothing I can do"
It seems like it has more to do with the us goverment, still, this is some bs level i havent seen in a while.
Not only they were banned, they removed them from the credits! this is bs.
This isn't the end of Linux but it may be the beginning of the end. Right now alarm bells are screaming in China, Russia, India, across the global south about this. They've seen the decades of US sanctions, often arbitrary and other punitive measures including cultural campaigns of exclusion and punishment (remember "freedom fries" after 9/11 because the French wouldn't go along with US adventures in Iraq?) now reaching a fever-pitch. All pretensions of the US to stand for freedom and individual liberty and such have been pushed aside, shoved away by these acts and the blatant hypocrisy of their support of the genocidal zionist state which even now broadens the war of aggression and genocide against Palestinians and Lebanese with full US support and diplomatic cover at the UN.
They see that all that lofty talk from the US was after all a lie. A large number of lies.
Where do we go from here? I fear fragmentation and partition of the world may be inevitable, a new cold war, the internet, software, everything being divided by series of hard and not so hard walls and barriers impeding cooperation, business, trade, cultural exchange, and people to people relations and discussions at an organic grassroots level.
Those in the west will see the freedoms increasingly curtailed, lofty language rolled back behind a large series of ever more expansive "but..." clauses, corporatization of the internet will increase, surveillance, control all justified by the waved wand of hysteria over Russia, China, Iran, muslims, whoever necessitating giving up your privacy, your rights, your freedoms, and of course any right for a dissenting opinion against whoever the current US president is and their administration.
National security in the 90s was used to outlaw export of encryption, to embargo the idea of a secure internet, to push for backdoor chips via the clipper chip in all personal computers. Now it and the same kind of foreign boogeymen are being used to finish that task that they failed at and we are letting them because of jingoism.
Israel is not expanding the war, it's expanding the occupation.
Just make a new kernel or something 🤷
view more: next ›