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Why not?
China does have a habit of market dumplings. It doesn't play nice with trade. But no where does. China is just very good at flooding market with stuff that is artificially cheap. By say, not bothering to test it meets the regulations of the market. Or using slave trade. Or just straight subsidiaries.
Also all modern cars, EV or otherwise, and straight spy machines.
China is a problem, but cars isn't where I'd start. (As long as they have been proved safe). I'd start with cheap electronics that don't meet regulations all over Amazon and EBay. A lot is just environmentally bad as it's just throwaway. Some is a fire risk.
China is just very good at dystopian capitalism.
I think that's regular capitalism. At least at far as everyone plays it.
The most popular Chinese EVs, the ones shipped internationally, are treated as rigorously as those if any other country and recently BYD specifically have begun receiving safety scores higher than cars from other countries.
Market dumplings? Haven't heard that one before, what's that?
Yes, but democracy keeps capitalism in check normally, but not in China.
I've heard nothing but good things about modern Chinese EVs. But they still need to be checked, and keep being checked, as the China has a terrible history with regs. Also, if they are market dumping again, there needs to be tariffs to counter it.
Raw free trade is a tragedy of the commons nonsense. Protectionism is self defeating. In the real world, most places are between those two rails.
Market dumping is flooding a market.with your goods at a loss. It can because you have excess you want to recoop what you can from. It can also be a weapon to take over a market and destory competition.
Democracy keep capitalism in check? Woo, citation needed, I disagree.
Unions keep capitalism in check.
The safety standards I'm talking about are international safety standards tested internationally, not domestic Chinese safety standards.
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-byd-models-score-top-marks-in-euro-ncap-safety-test
Oh, dumping*.
It says market "dumplings" in your original comment, I thought that there was some kind of cool new economic term I didn't know about.
Unions, regulations, etc. But none of that works without functioning democracy. That we barely have, but it's better than none.
Due to experience, I don't trust Chinese goods comply unless they are independently checked. That is reputation they have earned and now need to unearn. I don't just blame Chinese manufacturers but also Amazon, Ebay, etc for enabling the sale of goods claiming they comply to standards they don't.
Yes, dumping not dumplings, but yum. 😃
I doubt a democracy can function without unions any better than a union could function without a democracy.
It's fine to be wary, but now that you've been made aware of the independent safety testing done in Europe by independent safety commissions of Chinese EVs, why are you still implying you need different independent safety testing?
I'm not taking about democracy without unions. I agree that would be bad. I count unions as part of the democratic process.
I hope the independent testing is done yearly, on random cars, not just once on the design. Chinese manufacturing has earned low trust from me and that will take time to repair.
I also have lower trust in undemocratic countries. Trade alone doesn't improve how the act, and China is an example of that.
Got it. A lot of European countries are ostensibly democratic, and the European auto safety testing is fairly rigorous, same as the states.
Heres how they work:
https://www.euroncap.com/en/about-euro-ncap/how-to-read-the-stars/
Chinese arbitrary manufacturing mistrust is understandable, but their auto manufacturing standards are consistently independently affirmed as world-class while Tesla roofs and doors randomly fall off vehicles, for a bit of perspective on auto safety and manufacturing methods
Neither the US or the EU require annual testing for tested car models, which I agree would be nice.
It's not arbitrary, it's earnt. It's been cheap reg breaking (and spec breaking) stuff for decades. Things made of "Chinesium" are known for amazing cheapness not quality. It's going to take a while for Chinese cars to shake off that baggage.
At this point, baseless prejudice against Chinese EVs is just that.
They have high safety ratings, BYD has the highest safety testing Europe offers, they've been selling for years in Australia and Europe, and Tesla has doors and roofs falling off, Plus they just issued a recall for literally all cyber trucks because they built the accelerator pedal wrong.
If you don't trust euro automotive standards, say that, don't complain about the safety standards set by Europe that Chinese EVs are exceeding.
It is not baseless if there is form with other goods. Let's not pretend Chinese manufacturing has a good reputation. Time with the cars being good will fix that, but it is still a thing to overcome.
Chinese EVs have been sold internationally for years, they're performing better than other cars and test better and safer, other companies have failed those tests yet your only concerns are about Chinese cars.
Your "concerns" are simple prejudice by your own standards.
I'm sure over time, if they keep up a good standard, the whole "Chinesium" thing will go away. Would help if other stuff from China was better made too.
The world needs EVs at the price, range and quality these appear to be. European and American companies will only bought a bit of time by fear of "Chinesium" and spyware.
You're casting aspersions at the wrong people. The companies setting the manufacturing parameters requesting she's importing the cheap and poorly manufactured products from China are not Chinese companies, they are American, Euro, other countries' companies requesting poor and unsafe products to sell to you.
Look at Decathlon. A fantastic French sportswear and sports equipment company that designs all of their own products, sends the designs and manufacture specifications to factories in southern China, where Chinese factories manufacture clothing and hiking/sports equipment to those specifications and you have durable, dependable, comfortable sportswear and equipment that matches or surpasses similar products of any country I've ever been to.
Or you have Mattel or Walmart or Amazon ordering the cheapest fibers without specifying the manufacturer or design of the product and you have bath mats that give your feet rashes or air fryers that burn out after 3 weeks.
The racist and inaccurate epithet "Chinesium" describes the poor manufacturing requested by Americans, Europeans, and every other country that asks China to manufacture cheap products for them at the expense of quality and safety, not the manufacturing capability or contemporary product range of Chinese factories.
I said right at the beginning of this Amazon, EBay, etc where to blame too. I'd also blame US and EU regulators for not coming down on substandard stuff being sold on these platforms by drop shippers and flyby night companies. China manufacturing has got more tarring than those platforms and I agree it is unfair, but AliExpress is no better and is not a US/EU platform.
That's my whole point.
Your arguments about "Chinesium" are racist and unwarranted if you have any idea about a) how products supply chains work or b) stick to the topic of EVs, which passes all of your targeted requirements but you maintain is still bad in some way solely because of their ethnicity.
You haven't picked up I'm not saying for sure they are bad. Just that I have low trust because of past non-EV product experience. Lots of people in this boat. That's just reality.
I understand you want to backtrack all the things you've been saying, but nobody has accused you of saying "for sure they are bad" This is a public ledger, anyone can just scroll up.
Even though the thread is specifically about Chinese EVs, You are continually ignoring the topic to perpetuate tangential, baseless accusations about Chinese manufacturing and using racial slurs to disclaim your ignorance.
"Trade alone doesn't improve how the[sic] act"
"Chinesium"
"Would help if other stuff from China was better made"
"Things made of "Chinesium" are known for amazing cheapness not quality."
Then, after I explain how corporate manufacturing supply chains work, and lower quality is demanded by for and distributors, you admit that the reputation is not earned and is unfair.
"China manufacturing has got more tarring than those platforms and I agree it is unfair"
Although in every comment you've made you've been blaming the Chinese ethnicity for specific poor manufacturing processes and quality that other countries specifically request.
You're using disclaimers to wave away your racist or ignorant lines, and then continuing to say ethnically bigoted and maintain disprove unfounded accusations.
You argue "I don't trust Chinese goods comply unless they are independently checked."
I provide the links that explain exactly how Chinese EVs are independently tested abroad and have been for years, while pointing out that similar auto companies not from China manufacturer products that literally fall apart.
You continue to use ethnic slurs and repeat that you need independent testing, even though Independent testing you were unaware of is done and the evidence has been provided to you.
You're using ethnic slurs to describe the manufacturing process of a country, and then complaining that simple, factual rebuttals against your claims are not fair because you never clarified your racism or ignorance explicitly.
In addition to the explicit quotes provided above, the baseless accusations, implications and ethnic prejudices are right there in everything you said already.
You claim "China is a problem, but cars isn't where I'd start."
Then I'm not sure why you're replying to a thread and comments specifically about the Chinese EV industry and manufacturing practices , topics you've demonstrated very little knowledge of and prejudice towards.
I'm not back peddling, I'm just spitting out any words you try and put in my mouth for a canned argument rebuttal. Or maybe we are just talking past each other. As long as both want good EV to replace ICE cars and fair trading, we're probably not far off each other. As China becomes richer, it quality of everything will go up and cheap substand manufacturing will move to another country. Then that place or places will get the bad rap to climb out of. The cycle continues. Pretty that is starting now.
You're peddling something.
We aren't talking past each other, you're again advancing foolish and baseless racist falsities that have been disproven in previous comments.
"As China becomes richer, it quality of everything will go up."
Incorrect, because 1) they are the worlds 2nd largest economy, so obviously money isn't an issue 2) you've agreed that it is the fault of companies outside of Chinese requesting subpar products that result in subpar products manufacturing, not Chinese manufacturing standards 3) the quality of their products are already independently tested to exceed that of countries you are more ethnically sympathetic to.
You're making the same false arguments backed by zero evidence and racist disclaimers.
You must know that it's not total wealth of the nation, but the wealth of citizens that matters. When China is broadly all middle class, there won't be cheap labour. Amazon, EBay and others is still awash with cheap goods that doesn't always pass standards claimed. As I've repeatedly said, I don't just blame Chinese companies for this, but those large multinational companies. I have said multiple times, it is unfair that Chinese manfacturing is blamed alone for this. There really should be "Amazilian" to go with "Chinesium" or something that combines them. This cheap crap is a problem for a lot of people. The environment. The buyers, not protected by the standards of their markets. Other manufacturers, having to acturally follow the standards, so struggle to compete on cost even more. It has made people, including me, skeptical of what may well be quality good coming out of China. Time will tell and build reputation. I hope for the end of cheap crap, but as I said, it will move on from China. Other economies have room for a lot of growth until all citizens everywhere are broadly similar. Seams like none of this is something I haven't basically said at least once before....
Repeating your incorrect or racist tangents multiple times is not a virtue, not does it suddenly make your false statements suddenly true
So any unflattering critique of a section of Chinese industry is racist. Though of American, is unnote worthy. You like the CCP by any chance?
Incorrect again.
Insisting on your ethnic-based("Chinesium") value judgments rather than accepting the relevant, material non-ethnic information that disagrees with your misguided notions is racist.
You are again conflating industry with ethnicity. They are not the same thing.
Again, I'm saying that term exist because the problem exists. Again, Amazon and EBay, etc, should be blamed too. I'm arguing about governance. Race doesn't even exist. EU and US (and others) have turned a blind eye to the sale of things not meeting regulations of their markets. The Chinese government has turn a blind eye to this stuff manufacture and the flyby night shell companies selling it. I've already said China will not always be the place and it will move on to somewhere else. The problem, which you seam to want to deny exists and try to shut down will calls of racism, is not really China, it is bad governance and capitalism, and just corruption. As I said multiple times, it's not really fair China is blamed alone.
It's gratifying that you're backtracking and blaming your ignorance and irrelevant criticisms on the government and corporate responsibility, that is a step forward for you, but it doesnt negate your previous ethnic prejudice and certainly doesn't excuse you from continuing to focus on narrow irrelevant criticisms that you clearly don't understand and aren't related to the topic.
Keep it up though, your equivocation of your own racial prejudice with corporate standardization has made it much easier to knock down your arguments.
And I do appreciate you agreeing with all of my points, if belatedly and with a healthy dose of intentional misunderstanding and manipulation.
It's bizarre that you keep parroting my words to me, coated in a veneer of your own ethnic and cultural superiority, as if you've discovered, bastardized and colonized the concepts I have been explaining to you for a dozen comments.
Do you understand that you aren't allowed to be racist because you don't think race exists?
A disclaimer to cast aspersions on ethnicities you disapprove of is not what the phrase "race doesn't exist" is for.
Racism exists, but race doesn't. It's just social construct. Humans are boringly undiverse. I've not said anything else.
I don't think you understod you were being racist until maybe three comments ago when my explanations finally clicked for you, but there's no point denying what you said when anyone can scroll up.
Your myriad of prejudices about the Chinese people based specifically on their ethnicity, especially 1) The ethnic slurs 2) ignoring evidence contrary to your points because of their ethnicity and 3) misattributing non-ethnic characteristics to who "they" are examples of your racism.
You should accept and learn from your mistakes and move on, or you can vainly pretend you haven't written what you have and I can tell people to scroll up.
I think you just read what you wanted, as you wanted, to shut down discussion.
Not at all, but I understand why you're upset, your misdirection isn't working.
You work very hard at avoiding subjects to avoid accountability while speaking out the side of your mouth to pretend you aren't avoiding the subject, so it must be frustrating when that doesn't work out for you.
Unfortunately for you, I can keep multiple topics, logic and context consistent, so pretending that we were talking about something else isn't going to work.
You're wrong about Chinese EVs, pursued irrelevant tangents, realized that wouldn't work, requested independent testing of the EVs, ignored the evidence of independent testing I provided, admitted that you were wrong about Chinese manufacturing, all while leaning on baseless ethnic stereotypes to buttress your misguided assumptions and ignorance, that you tried to explain was okay because race isn't real.
You can keep trying, though.
Or you can just admit to yourself that you made mistakes and move on.
But you aren't going to trick anybody, it's way too easy to scroll up.
Sorry you think that, but I'm not paid to arguing forever and have other things to do so.......
Apologize for yourself, not for others.
China does not do altruism. Their car manufacturers are owned and subsidized by the government. They're made to saturate and destroy markets with cheap goods, driving out the competition. Once there is no competition, they have the market to themselves and can manipulate as they see fit.
Weird that you are confusing such discrete, almost antithetical concepts as altruism and capitalism.
Yes, Chinese auto companies are trying to corner part of the auto market like every other car company in every country does.
And now they're doing it with inexpensive EVs receiving top marks in safety and manufacture, according to the top global standards.
So you can whine about all car companies trying to sell a product(seems like a waste of time) or provide actual evidence that the safety ratings for Chinese EVs are false in some way.
Right now you're spewing irrelevant tangents that have nothing to do with the EV industry.
He doesn't want them to compete with Americans.
A totalitarian government that allows slave labor, genocide and wants to invade Taiwan. Really?
I think so. What are you asking, exactly?
You don’t get why we shouldn’t be trading with China And instead should ge enabling our own EV manufactures ?
So you're pretending I'm making arguments I'm not because my comment makes you uncomfortable?
Have at it, I'm sure you'll come out on top by arguing with yourself.
Your comments don’t make me uncomfortable. You just don’t seem to grasp why trading with China is bad.
You have no basis for that accusation, you're playing make-believe.
It's obviously difficult for you to engage in an honest discussion, though, so I can see why you make things up.
Here is a short list of why...
https://www.thestreet.com/opinion/china-has-a-history-of-selling-dangerous-products-to-us-consumers-13063992
This is specifically about independently tested high-scoring automobiles to European and Australian markets, not products released by American companies from untrustworthy manufacturers to Americans.
Your list has American companies choosing to sell dangerous and unregulated products to Americans until enough legal violations pile up, very different from China manufacturing and selling regulated and independently tested EVs to non-US markets.
Don't get me wrong, this is just to show a history and why people may not trust Chinese products, EVs are a great stepping stone to our next less environmentally damaging inventions. IF Chinese EV makers meet safety etc regulations then they will start to repair their reputation, if they also stop their less honest companies from exporting crap that will hurt consumers regardless of who pays them.
Was just showing why there is distrust. Hopefully they follow regulations and force, through quality products, other car makers to make smaller, better, and more economical vehicles.
I totally get why people mistrust Chinese manufacturers, but their prejudice has to be within context of at least the comments they are responding to.
I'm specifically talking about independently tested high-scoring Chinese EVs in Europe and Australia being so inexpensive that national subsidies are irrelevant, and in receiving arguments that undemocratic countries don't make good products or that Mattel ships unsafe products to Americans.
I understand the mistrust, but that mistrust has nothing to do with the post or my comments, so I'm corralling less relevant tangents back into the sphere of material relevance.
You asked why not when the answer is self evident. Have a good night.
You answering your own make-believe comments is as self-evident as you avoiding my question.