Autism

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BackOnMyBS@lemmy.world

How much do you dream when you sleep? (self.autism)

submitted 7 months ago by GutixFeddit to c/autism@lemmy.world

23 comments fedilink hide all child comments

i was questioning that, since i can remember in two years i havent dream a lot, now i cant remember i cant dream, is like i just sleep is pure black, do you have this? or do you dream too?

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[–] Australis13@fedia.io 12 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) (1 children)

I have never had many dreams, but they experienced an uptick when I started melatonin. Stress also makes me have more nightmares.

There is growing evidence that autism involves a dysfunction of the serotonergic system, particularly the central nervous system (CNS) pathway (Tryptophan -> 5-HTP -> Serotonin -> N-Acetylserotonin -> Melatonin). There are also studies showing that the conversion from N-Acetylserotonin (NAS) to melatonin is impeded in autism.

I did a lot of digging into this to try to aid my sleep and general health. Here are the key takeways:

Vitamin D regulates serotonin synthesis and Vitamin D deficiency can reduce the amount of Tryptophan entering the CNS, so make sure you're not deficient. Unfortunately Tryptophan competes with other large amino acids for entry into the brain, so if you can't get enough through your diet, you can use 5-HTP supplements to aid serotonin production.
Vitamin B6 is required for the conversion of 5-HTP to serotonin.
Low magnesium has been correlated with a reduction in serotonin production.
Melatonin supplements (anywhere from 5mg to 20mg) can help a lot with making up for the poor conversion from NAS to melatonin.

If anyone's interested I can dig up the studies/references I used.

(As an aside, sleep apnoea will also reduce the amount of REM sleep, as past a certain point your brain will keep pulling you back into light sleep in order to breathe. If you haven't checked if you have sleep apnoea, please do so!)

[–] BackOnMyBS@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago (1 children)

Thanks for sharing! I find this quite interesting as I continue to have this nagging need to establish what is the fundamental difference between autistic and NT neurotypes that result in the practical differences we experience. Do you know where I can read more about the latest science that focuses on this?

20mg sounds like quite an excessive amount. Are you sure about that? Do you have a source to support that claim?

[–] Australis13@fedia.io 6 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

You're welcome. Unfortunately there's no one place where you can read up on it; in my case I searched for any studies or papers on autism and/or serotonin to get a better understanding of how the system worked. Whilst some research is behind paywalls, a lot is still publicly accessible (ResearchGate is one such site). Google Scholar is probably the easiest way to search for relevant papers, though, as it usually lists where the full paper (as a PDF) is available.

Some of the papers I've come across that may be of interest to you:

Serotonin is a key factor in motor function - Jacobs, B.L. and Fornal, C.A. (1999) ‘Activity of serotonergic neurons in behaving animals’, Neuropsychopharmacology: official publication of the American College of Neuropsychopharmacology, 21(2 Suppl), p. 9S–15S.
Serotonin seems to play a role in "hot" vs "cold" processing; this may be why emotional processing is affected in autism - Robinson, O.J. and Sahakian, B.J. (2009) ‘A double dissociation in the roles of serotonin and mood in healthy subjects’, Biological psychiatry, 65(1), pp. 89–92.
One form of the serotonin transporter is linked to increased sensory sensitivity, often found in autism - Homberg, J.R. et al. (2016) ‘Sensory processing sensitivity and serotonin gene variance: Insights into mechanisms shaping environmental sensitivity’, Neuroscience and biobehavioral reviews, 71, pp. 472–483.
Vitamin D's role in serotonin synthesis and relevance to autism (this paper notes that CNS serotonin is lower in autism than in NTs) - Patrick, R.P. and Ames, B.N. (2014) ‘Vitamin D hormone regulates serotonin synthesis. Part 1: relevance for autism’, FASEB journal: official publication of the Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology, 28(6), pp. 2398–2413
Serotonin-NAS-Melatonin pathway affected in autism (Melke et al in particular notes the genetic basis for this) - Pagan, C. et al. (2014) ‘The serotonin-N-acetylserotonin-melatonin pathway as a biomarker for autism spectrum disorders’, Translational psychiatry, 4, p. e479., Martinez-Cayuelas, E. et al. (2022) ‘Melatonin Rhythm and Its Relation to Sleep and Circadian Parameters in Children and Adolescents With Autism Spectrum Disorder’, Frontiers in neurology, 13, p. 813692. and Melke, J. et al. (2008) ‘Abnormal melatonin synthesis in autism spectrum disorders’, Molecular psychiatry, 13(1), pp. 90–98.
The TPH2 gene (which controls the rate-limiting enzyme for serotonin synthesis in the brain) may be involved in autism - Coon, H. et al. (2005) ‘Possible association between autism and variants in the brain-expressed tryptophan hydroxylase gene (TPH2)’, American journal of medical genetics. Part B, Neuropsychiatric genetics: the official publication of the International Society of Psychiatric Genetics, 135B(1), pp. 42–46.

As for the quantity of melatonin, that was in discussion with my doctor. He expected that the commonly available 2mg supplements wouldn't do anything and that it would probably take 10mg to have a significant impact. He also said not to go above 20mg. In my case, 10mg works very well, but was increasing the risk of being tired the next day - so I am currently on 5mg (this helps, but I don't sleep through the night as well as I did on 10mg).

Also on the safety side of things, be aware that 5-HTP should not be taken with SSRIs without careful medical supervision due to the interaction and risk of serotonin syndrome.